Buondì.
An interesting emailed question from Karen, who writes:
You’ve continually advised to read for the general gist, not word for word. I totally agree with this and have always done so. I read every EasyItalianNews email and without really trying, I believe my vocabulary has increased considerably.However in every Italian class I’ve been in – be it Stateside or abroad – when the instructor has us read a passage aloud in class, s/he has without fail had us thereafter immediately translate the text aloud, word for word.I’ve never been a big fan of this method; and it seems to runs counter to exactly what you suggest – just get the general idea.Is this read aloud/translate aloud method the way Italians think we non-native speakers learn language best? Or is there merit for precisely translating every single word?I’d appreciate your thoughts.
No merit at all, if this is the usual approach (there might be occasions when it is appropriate, but not as a general rule.) Your instructors are using a methodology that was already outdated in the 1920s. Since then, language teaching has been through several revolutions.EVEN teachers in Italy know better than to use this ‘grammar-translation approach’…. It was used for several hundred years to teach dead languages such as Latin and Ancient Greek, back in the days before public education, when the only books available were IN Latin and Ancient Greek, so reading and translating was basically all there was.But as soon as there was a need to teach people to speak and understand modern languages (think the two world wars, for example, the need to train troops as language experts, the need for people to monitor radio transmissions in Russian during the cold war, etc.) it was obvious that ‘grammar-translation’ wasn’t going to pass muster.The old way of teaching foreign languages was definitively knocked off its perch by ‘behaviourist’ theories (listen and repeat, endlessly…) back in the period between the two world wars, which in turn was turfed into the trashcan of history by more communicative and student-centered approaches from the ‘sixties onwards.A glance at any modern language course book, from a reputable publisher, will give you a good idea of just how much translating things is no longer considered an acceptable methodology.
- Of course, if the purpose of the course is to teach you grammar only, or to teach you to translate, then the ‘grammar-translation’ approach might be perfectly apt
- And universities and the like may well prioritise that sort of thing, on the basis that they’re teaching classes numbering in their hundreds, so anything ‘communicative’ might be impractical. British universities offer speaking practice with native speaker ‘tutors’ in addition to what might be a rather old-fashioned, grammar-centric approach in the lecture halls. And there’s the requirement that students spend time abroad to brush up on their skills, so therefore nothing inherently wrong with having a good basis in the grammar first, even though it’s probably not much fun…
- And EVEN I use forms of ‘contrastive analysis’ with classes at times, for example with Italian adults learning English – I might require them to work out, for example, how they talk about ‘future time’ in Italian (a harder question than you would imagine) before figuring out how what English speakers do is different and/or similar. That approach would NOT be appropriate with children, though, nor with classes of adults from different countries (so having different mother tongues)
In short, a teacher should be aware of WHY their students are learning and WHAT they need/want to learn, which in many cases (I am assuming most club members) is to be able to ‘communicate’. The methodology selected should reflect that, where possible.
For example, if you took a class at a language school in Italy, such as ours, you could reasonably expect some grammar content (it’s difficult to say much at all in Italian without conjugating a range of the most common verbs), along with a focus on speaking practice and communicative skills. And assuming you were in a group class with others, perhaps students from Europe or Asia who might not know English as well as you do, then it would be normal that the class was taught ‘in italiano’ – so providing the listening/speaking practice, even if at a cost of making the grammar harder to understand – rather than ‘in inglese’.
As far as I am aware, there’s no one, ‘right’ way to teach a language. But there are plenty of ‘wrong’ ways, and those are going to be ‘wrong’, not because of their deviance from the prevailing orthdoxy, but because they’re not a good fit for the learners.
Educational practice not being a good fit for the people being educated is something we’re probably all familiar with. State organisations, such as schools and universities, can get away with that, the students’ role being to do what they’re told. But private language schools and courses tend not to last very long unless they embrace more student-centered approaches – we need the positive word-of-mouth that comes from satisfied customers!
And for the self-taught student? Someone perhaps like you, who’s hoping to learn a foreign language, with online resources, without necessarily visiting or living in the country?
Someone like me, too, as I’m learning Spanish, French, Turkish and Swedish.
THAT’S why I always bang on about maximising the time devoted to reading and listening, rather than suggesting you/I try to grasp the whole grammar of the language, and memorise masses of words we might never use, before venturing into communicative activities like speaking and listening.
Reading and listening practice is free, or cheap. There’s lots of it available, once you build even a minimum level of confidence. And you can do it from your own home.
Add some regular conversation practice, and a quick skim of the basics of the grammar, if you really insist, and you should be well on your way to basic communicative competence. No course or teacher required, unless for your own reasons you choose to avail yourself of them.
In which case, let the buyer beware!
A lunedì.
Gillian says
I confess that I have often made word for word translations in order to understand what is going on. I just don’t enjoying reading without understanding. It’s boring, and makes me feel stupid.
Now that I’m much more fluent, I’m happy to read for general understanding, because I can get the main picture without looking up much.
One area where I still go for word-for-word translation is where there are double pronouns – I really need to know who is doing what to whom. I know that this is just a temporary thing that will fall away as my fluency builds once more.
I got a little reward this week for NOT looking up a word. “Tregua” was in the second last edition of EIN, I didn’t look it up cos I was on my cyclette & I got the gist. Then it appeared again in the latest edition, & the context made it clear that it meant ceasefire. I thought those people at EIN are very clever!
Daniel says
“I just don’t enjoying reading without understanding. It’s boring, and makes me feel stupid.”
I’d say that that attitude is a serious handicap and will likely cause you to misallocate time, energy and resources during your learning journey.
Whatever your level in Italian, were you to begin learning another language from scratch, not-understanding is the norm, and developing appropriate strategies to deal with it is the way to go. Like it or not.
Gillian says
Maybe you’re right and I have wasted a lot of time getting here, but it was enjoyable time.
Pleasure is my first priority, and I actually enjoy grammar and the structure of language. I have enjoyed courses in linguistics and history of English.
I’m just as pleased to know Italian has two words for “better” as I am to actually use them.
I was mulling about my language goals, and I wonder if my goal is as much exploring the linguistics as mastering performance. The gains in fluency are a delightful side-effect of the exploration.
My overarching aim is to enjoy the process. Last week I was quite angry about stuff ups in life, and it was refreshing to relax into a discussion in Italian of “migliore” and “meglio” with the lovely Serena.
Daniel, I appreciate your advice and nudges. Maybe your next topic could be “Enjoy what you do, and do more of it”.
Daniel says
“Enjoy what you do and do more of it”, but if what you’re doing is inconsistent with your objective, don’t be surprised if it takes you longer to get there, or if you don’t get there at all.
It’s not uncommon that people take language evening classes to keep busy, get out of the house, or make friends.
But I’ve never met a student (in over thirty years of teaching) who didn’t want to speak and understand better, ideally as soon as possible, and with the minimum effort expended. It’s human nature to want to be included in the conversation.
I’ve met lots who, having concluded that they needed to up their game when it came to speaking/understanding the language they were studying, decided that more grammar was the right way to go.
And lots who were disappointed with the results of that.
I’m straining to think of examples of students who did masses of speaking, listening and reading practice but later regretted it.
“Damn, wish I’d had fun learning grammar instead”, they’d tell me.
Nope, no one comes to mind.
Gillian says
Heh, heh. It’s true that I’m very pleased with my growing proficiency in understansing TV programs, reading news articles and conversation.
Trouble is that I just CANNOT make myself do things I dislike when it’s not essential (bloodtests). So, given that I am drawn to learn Italian, intrigued even, I let myself do the things I enjoy & find sneaky ways to do the things I seem to avoid – listen/read EIN on my bike, form a bookclub with a friend to read last summer’s Roman History, etc.
I’m interested to understand HOW I learn. I know my rote memory is poor cv others, but some things stick first time. I feel that I’ve had ‘first exposure’ to lots of vocab & structures & now I need lots of exposure to them ‘in the wild”, or they’ll quickly be forgotten.
There is a birdwatcher aspect to language learning. My husband has pored over his field guides so much that he can tell a fantail from a tree creeper at a glance. Whereas I’m pleased when I recognise that THAT ‘ci’ means there not us and some sense emerges.
Thanks Daniel
Daniel says
People have different learning preferences and strategies, that much is well-known, and your comment illustrates it well.
But little is certain about how people learn languages, or how they should be taught them. It seems we know more about the physics of the universe or the make up of viruses than about what goes on in our own heads!
One thing that IS fairly well-established is that people learn when they have the opportunity and motivation to do so – learning is a sofware application that comes with the human brain, so most people with opportunity and motivation will make at least some process.
What’s uncertain (though lots of people claim to know) is just how to maximise the results that the sofware can obtain, by providing it with appropriate input, so content and context.
That’s basically where one language-learning methodology differs from another – rote learn lists or do lots of authentic reading and listening? Which is better? And the answer might be different at different times in the learning journey, and depending on what your mother tongue is, and depending on how much previous learning experience you’ve had, and, and, and.
It’s all very complicated, but as you say, it is pleasing when some sense begins to emerge. It’s also evidence that you’re doing at least something right!