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Daniel says
Buondì book-clubbers
This is the final ‘page’ of the ‘Il nome della rosa’ series. You’ve had all the ‘riassunti’ and hopefully at least some of you are making progress with Eco’s actual book.
Now, with a ‘real book club’ I’m told that first people read the book on their own and then they all get together and exchange views on the book, maybe while eating cake or cookies.
I’d thought of trying to organise something similar, but time zones are a big issue (it’s night in Australia when it’s afternoon in Italy and breakfast-time in the USA).
So we’ll have to be content with this ‘comment’ format, which at least some people seem to have been participating in with enthusiasm! The fact that it’s NOT real time, in a sense, is an advantage, if for no other reason than that no one has to miss anything. The conversation will still be available for anyone to read in the future. There must be plenty of you who are still only in the middle of Eco’s story and so won’t be ready for final comments. But when you have, finally, got to the end, this page will be waiting for you.
OK, so I’m told that one option for a book-club ‘cookiefest and discussion’ is that the organiser provides a list of questions as a basis for conversation. I therefore Googled ‘typical book club questions’, but regretted it. The suggested promts seemed banal, and more suited to people who had never read a book before and certainly never had a conversation about books – which I don’t think applies to any of us.
Consequently, I’ll write a few of my own questions, with the emphasis on the language-learning side of things, which is my speciality (see below IN CAPITALS).
And I’d encourage you to add your own question or questions, perhaps about specific aspects of the book that you liked, disliked or want to comment on or discuss. If you would like to pose a question for discussion, just do it, go ahead. But I’d suggest that you also write your question IN CAPITALS, too, to help it to stand out and to make it easier for people to reply to your specific point.
This page will be left open for comments for at least a couple or weeks, or until the end of the lockdown when normal life resumes, whichever comes sooner. So ‘nel frattempo’ let’s have fun!
BOOK CLUB QUESTIONS
1.) WAS THIS THE FIRST ‘REAL’ BOOK YOU’VE READ IN ITALIAN (OR ANOTHER FOREIGN LANGUAGE)? HOW DID THAT FEEL? WILL YOU BE REPEATING THE EXPERIENCE IN THE FUTURE? WHY? WHY NOT?
2.) OBVIOUSLY, EVEN FOR VERY ADVANCED STUDENTS LIKE ME, THERE’S AN AWFUL LOT OF STUFF THAT’S UNKNOWN IN A BOOK LIKE THIS – GRAMMAR, VOCABULARY, BACKGROUND INFORMATION, STYLISTIC ELEMENTS, AND SO ON. HOW DID YOU COPE WITH THAT? WHAT WAS EASIER/HARDER TO GET USED TO?
3.) WOULD YOU READ MORE BY THIS AUTHOR? MORE BOOKS LIKE THIS? OR GO FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT NEXT TIME (HOW DIFFERENT? WHY?)
4.) I ASK MY KIDS THIS QUESTION WHEN I COOK SOMETHING NEW FOR THEM: “MARKS OUT OF 10?” FOR THE BOOK? FOR YOUR PROGRESS READING IT? FOR THE BOOK CLUB EXPERIENCE?
5.) ADD YOUR QUESTION OR QUESTIONS HERE!!
Rachel Belgrave says
Hi Daniel – think i posted my comment as reply – sorry.
PS our book club here meet in the evening with prossecco !
greg saro says
Ho appena finito il libro…
Davvero devo ringraziarti Daniel per questa esperienza unica. Immenso Kudo per chiunque abbia fatto il reassunto. E’stato un lavoro meraviglioso. Di solito, leggo prima il riassounto. Questo era il mio metodo. Il riassunto era ben preparato, incredibile; lettura fluida. In una singola pagina o due hai già l’idea generale. Il riassunto ha reso molto facile passare attraverso le 50 o 60 pagine che dovevo leggere. Certo, mi sono perse diverse parole. Ma il quadro generale fornito dal riassunto è stato il vero aiuto nella lettura del libro in italiano.
Daniel, È stata una grande idea. Hai reso facile leggere un libro in italiano.. Grande compagno durante la quarantena di Covid-19.
Ti ringrazio e ti prego di offrire nel future tanti di questi projetti.
Daniel says
Mille grazie, Greg. E bravo a te!!
Laura says
Greg,
Sono d’accordo che Daniel e stato un grande compagno durante la quarantena di Covid-19. E a tutti, siete stati grandi compagni durante la pandemia…
Laura
Dawn Tyers says
Hi Daniel
Have only read the small Easy Readers before so ‘Rosa’ definitely more challenging but I’m still going. Hope you do continue the book club as I’ve loved reading everyone’s comments. Perhaps something a little shorter next time? Can’t rate the book as I’ve yet to finish it but definitely 10 for the club experience. Thanks Daniel for all the effort. DT
Chris says
I can’t seem to find the il nome della rosa easy reader shown here. Can someone post the link ?
Daniel says
There isn’t one. We realised that the original text was still in copyright, so decided not to sell an easy reader version. However, we have posted our simplified texts in the literature section of the site.
Zsuzsanna Snarey says
This was the first real book I attempted to read, I tried my hardest, but being at the A2/B1 stage I failed to finish even leaving out big chunks of text. I managed the riassunti which were very helpful and found the exercises very good. I have even printed all 8 chapters out so that I can read them away from the computer during the day.
I loved the book and found it so interesting that I bought the translated version and I am planning to read the long difficult theological passages and arguments about heresies which were left out of the riassunti. I have also seen the Sean Connery version and the recent TV adaptation which helped with the visualisation while reading the original long version.
I hope one day to able to read the whole of the original Italian text! If the lockdown continues it might be not too far away. Until then I shall carry on with the free exercises and the Online Skype lessons once a week with my lovely teacher Francesca Bizotto.
Thank you Daniel for making this book available and for your encouragement to carry on reading it in spite of the difficulties.
10 out of 10 for the book, 2 out 10 for my effort and 5 out of 10 for the book club experience.
Daniel says
2 out 10 for my effort
Perhaps you’re being a little harsh there, Zsuzsanna, but if you have given up on the orignal and bought the translation then maybe it’s justified. The ‘riassunti’ are of course much easier than Eco’s text. But they’re not THAT easy, in the scheme of thing. You obviously, then, have an ability to read, understand and enjoy Italian. All that was required was to keep turning the pages for long enough.
Many people will never read a ‘real’ book in Italian. For those of us that do, the first time feels like this – harder, slower, and not as much fun as reading in English. And the next time, and the time after that. But if we keep trying, there’s a reason.
Laura says
Zsuzsanna,
You’re definitely being too hard on yourself in terms of progress. You actually attempted to read the real book. You should give yourself a lot of credit for that. I bet that as you continue to study Italian, you’ll go back to Il Nome della Rosa and finish it!
Laura
John Dixie says
Thank you Daniel for organising this. I had read a few bits of books in foreign languages before but this is the first book I am seeking to read in full, and I am finding it most enjoyable. I am not attempting to keep up with the blistering pace you have set so it is good to know that the material will remain available. I am actually interested in the theological bits and the style more that the who dunnit plot so I am taking my time. (If I wanted a quick who dunnit I could read one in English!) Like Zsuzsanna I might buy a copy of the English translation to speed up understanding the trickier bits. I am using the Kindle version, which was inexpensive and had me reading 5 minutes after deciding to participate in the book club.
Daniel says
If I wanted a quick who dunnit I could read one in English!
True, but then you wouldn’t be improving your Italian, John. And personally, I’d say that that sort of light, enjoyable and fairly predictable reading is the ideal way to get the reading mileage under your belt so that later, if you choose to, you can tackle the stuff you are more interested in.
I might buy a copy of the English translation to speed up understanding the trickier bits
Well, you have to make your own learning decisions, I suppose. But it seems rather like shooting yourself in the foot, to me. Skip the parts that are easier to read, focus on the hard stuff, then compare your ability to read that with what you can do much more easily in your native language. Sounds like a recipe for demotivation….
Zsuzsanna Snarey says
Daniel,
Having the English text did not demotivate me in the least! I am still learning and enjoying the book. But as you promised the original text is getting easier
I look forward to Pinocchio!
Rachel Belgrave says
Hi Daniel I think this is an excellent project and do hope you’ll continue the book club. I enjoyed the reading but as someone said ‘blistering pace’ was a bit fast but an excellent incentive. At that pace there’s no time to check vocabulary ! It was quite an exercise in skimming too – over the theological historical bits . The riassunta worked well as a check to understanding, something that might be not be available when reading other books in Italian.
As far as I can judge and from its reputation it is a fascinating book beautifully written with rich content and style. Quite a challenge for us learners ! I finished more or less in time but realise that I’ve ,missed an awful lot so will go back to it and maybe look at the English version. My theological friends are horrified that I was reading it as a whodunnit!
To answer your questions : yes more original Italian, maybe nor Umberto Ecco, a bit shorter and more accessible in terms of background,
11 out of 10 for the book club experience9 , 5 out of 10 for ,my effort. thanks again/
Daniel says
Well done for finishing, Rachel! Your theological friends seem rather stuck up, if you don’t mind me saying so… I agree with you that I won’t be seeking out more Eco. But if I happened to trip over another of his tomes, I’d be more willing to pick it up and leaf through it having finished ‘Rosa’.
Anne Orlando says
Ciao Daniel!
I am about a third of the way through the book (I read blazingly fast in English, not so much in Italian). What I have been doing is reading an entire chapter (or half a chapter) in the original Italian then reading the same bit in an English translation of the book that I found online. I find that am grasping the big picture (yay!) but missing the finer details and the theological bits. That’s ok with me because I understand more than I thought I would. I found using the riassunta helpful at times but mainly I just read the Italian then fill in the gaps with the English.
When I texted my daughter (she had 8 years of Italian language studies and has lived and worked in Italy) a passage that went on forever without any punctuation we had a good laugh and she explained that it’s “an Italian thing”. And she wished me luck and said this was what reading Dante was like for her when she was at university.
So I will finish this book in the next couple of weeks. I have to know “whodunnit” LOL
I will definitely read more books in Italian but something with a less philosophical/theological underlying tone. I love the book club idea and will continue to “read together, apart” in keeping with social distancing.
PS Your poem about the boy who is going to ring the bell and you scare him off with Russians and explosions? Really funny!
Daniel says
Grazie Anne. And keep on turning the pages!
mainly I just read the Italian then fill in the gaps with the English
It seems to be what many people are doing, which I understand if the focus is on ‘meaning’ and ‘understanding’. But if your focus is on ‘acquiring better reading skills’, so investing in your future ability to read in Italian, then I really feel that it’s a misstep. The problem is that, to read EFFECTIVELY (and by that, in part, I mean more quickly) it really is necessary to tolerate the gaps and the not-sures. Which takes training. Think of an athlete, who’s always going to lose races. All athletes lose races, it’s part of the job, but also part of getting better. It’s the competition – being surrounded by runners who are faster, more experienced, tougher and more motivated than you are – that helps you raise your game.
Books are the same. You guys just forgot (in my humble opinion) that there was a phase in your lives when you didn’t read English as confidently as you do now. And that, with time and effort, you got through that. Then, there was no translation to fall back on. Kids that consume books learn to do so DESPITE the difficulties. Ask any ten-year-old Harry Potter fanatic.
Laura says
This was the first reading I’ve done in Italian, and as I only started studying Italian a month ago, I just read i riassunti. By the way, the chapter summaries/riassunti were very well done. In i riassunti 6-8 I was able to read and comprehend the majority of the content without a dictionary, which was such an exciting experience! Because I’m now enjoying reading in Italian so much, I’ve already started on Dante’s Divine Comedy as I await our next book club,
There’s another book by Umberto Eco that I would definitely consider reading (in Italian or English) called Numero Zero. It’s about how powerful people and the owners of the press control the news we hear and read, which is actually one of the same themes in Il Nome della Rosa.
I give a 10 for i riassunti, since I’m not reading the original book, although I might have to buy a copy! I also give a 10 for my progress in reading i riassunti. I’m very excited about the progress I’ve made in Italian through our book club! Suddenly the exercises on the DuoLingo app seem so much easier — I directly attribute that to being involved in our club and learning to read in Italian. And I rate our book club experience a 10+ — Daniel, you are a great moderator, and I love reading everyone’s comments. It gives me a feeling of connection to others during this strange lockdown time we’re living in right now.
Daniel says
I’m very excited about the progress I’ve made in Italian through our book club! Suddenly the exercises on the DuoLingo app seem so much easier
I’ve noticed the same in the past with other languages, Laura. That some extensive reading (newspapers, mostly) quickly pays back in terms of greater certainty and understanding regarding more discrete items, such as Duolingo.
Thanks for the positive feedback, by the way.
N.b. You’re a Spanish speaker, right? Native or very high level? Then you really ought to be giving the ‘real’ books a try… Spanish and Italian (and French) are sufficiently similar that reading a ‘new’ language is more a process of adjustment than anything else.
Laura says
I’m a native English speaker. Several years ago, I was a very high level Spanish speaker, but when I stopped working at the job where I had to use Spanish every day, I became a bit rusty. But I’m told my Spanish is still very understandable! Yes, I’m definitely going to pull out those Spanish novels I saved (but never read due the work of looking up everything in the dictionary) and revisit them senza dizionario!
Laura says
TWO QUESTIONS:
1. I’VE READ A LOT OVER THE YEARS ABOUT THE CORRUPTION OF THE EARLY CATHOLIC CHURCH. IT MAKES ME WONDER IF SOME THINGS GOT LEFT OUT OF THE BIBLE OR CHANGED ON PURPOSE BY POWERFUL INDIVIDUALS TRYING TO CONTROL THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE MASSES? I AM BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT ON ANY OF THIS, BUT FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, THIS CORRUPTION IS WHAT LEAD TO THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION. AND I FIND MYSELF WONDERING IF THERE ARE ANY MISSING PARTS OF THE BIBLE THAT ARE STILL HIDDEN IN A VATICAN LIBRARY. I FEEL LIKE I’M COMMITTING HERESY JUST TYPING THIS! ANY OPINIONS?
2. I WONDER IF THIS TYPE OF HIDING OF THE TRUTH STILL GOES ON NOWADAYS WITH THE NEWS MEDIA? ANY OPINIONS?
Daniel says
Interesting questions, Laura.
1.) I would assume that all of the world’s holy books, irrespective of whether they actually are the word of whichever deity, have been susceptible to human manipulation, shall we say ‘editing’? Even if you assume that the Latin bible used at the time of this tale was ‘true and complete’, it’s highly likely that modern experts would find issues with the translation from the language or languages the texts were originally written in (this is obviously more of an issue for Christians than for, say, Moslems…)
2.) I think we have all realised from observing U.S. presidential politics that one person’s ‘truth’ need not resemble another’s, ‘fake news’ and all that. Actually, I think it’s an important lesson. Some countries have a much higher trust in what they are told by the state and the media. Arguably, in the current virus situation, that’s a good thing. Other countries have a long tradition of scepticism and distrust towards the authorities. Think of the crafty Italian taxpayer, for example, or the U.S. constitution’s famous second ammendment. Fascinating stuff.
Colleen says
Not the first “Real Book”I have read in Italian- but definitely the most challenging. I had to skip sections. The riassunti, the exercises and the audiolibro really kept me on track. I will definitely be repeating the experience! I love the Italian language. I may even tackle Il Pendolo di Foucault. as my reading skills improve.
Once I “get into”a book ,I find it easier to keep going. For me it also always helps to have an audio version even though abridged. I learned how to read by listening to books being read to me.We all have different ways we learn…
I will read anything in Italian that has ideas I am interested in. It is especially enjoyable to read with a Book Club.
10-10-10-For the book, the experience (still finishing reading!) and for the effort Daniel put into creating the Book Club and encouraging us to keep reading!
Daniel says
Many thanks for the 10’s, Colleen!
Interesting that you write:
“I will read anything in Italian that has ideas I am interested in.”
And it seems that many of your fellow book-clubbers are the same – cultured, seekers-after-knowledge.
For me, reading is, on the other hand, a way of learning a language, and a way of passing the time enjoyably. Ideally both together. The ideas could be banal or repetitive but I have to be motivated enough to keep turning the page, which means that the text needs to be do-able and ideally fun.
I’m sure you’re all familiar with John Grisham, American author of trashy-but-engaging legal thrillers. Twenty years back when I first came to Italy, I was already a fan. But English originals of the newest books weren’t available or, if they were, they cost more than I wanted to pay. So each year I splashed out the price of a pint of beer on the latest Italian translation (priced at about half the original, which wasn’t in any case available) and read that. Cheap entertainment, but also a very effective course in reading in Italian. Keep turning the pages, Daniel. Why? You mean you have something better to do? Well no.
A couple of years later I signed up for an MBA (taught in Italian) and had a lot of heavier reading to do. And a year or so after that, I started my own company (contracts, laws, boring but important stuff.) They were steps on a journey, of course. But on the language-learning trail, there ARE steps, lots of them intermediate.
You don’t get to Pass Go and Collect £200 without shaking the dice many times first!
minou says
Ciaro a tutti! Il contatto durante le lettura e’ stato crucial per me. Tutti i commenti sono stati utili (e.g., Daniel’s grandi idee re: language learning — however, Daniel, kids’ books have helpful pictures!!), motivanti (Laura: solo un mese in italiano!!) e informativi (e..g. la piccola storia corsa di Rosalind, capitolo 8). Grazie a tutti!
Risposte a Daniel’s Bk Club Qs (per favore scusami: senza dizionario)
(1) Questo era il primo libro per adulti in italiano che ho [sort of] completato. Ne ho tentati molti altri (anche Le citta’ invisibili). Sono “astounded” – I stayed the course (idioma?).
(2) Non sono a pace con lasciare grandi lacune nella mia conoscienza di questo libro. So, I’m looking forward leggere di piu’ italiano [so] posso leggere meglio Il nome in futuro.
(3) Mi piacciono le tue idee di Calvino e di Pinocchio. Forse Pinocchio e’ meglio perche’ (a) e’ piu’ facile (?), e (b) ci sono piu’ materiali accessible.
(4) Libro: 10/10. // My efforts: 8/10, though my ability went from 1/10 to 2/10 – which is huge in view of the brief time! // Book Club: 10++/10. Non avrei potuto aver successo senza tutti voi!
(5) Ecco la mia domanda: HOW MUCH IF AT ALL WAS ECO BEING TONGUE IN CHEEK (idioma italiano per favore). This Q has stayed w/ me since Daniel’s earlier references to Baskerville and Jorge de Burgos. Now that we’ve read the book, anyone have thoughts about this? I got stuck thinking Eco was clever and fascinating rather than brilliant with this book – pero’ nota la mia lettura incompleta del libro.
Grazie e sperando di vedervi tutti al prossimo libro!
Daniel says
Ciao Minou, e mille grazie per i tuoi contribuiti qui!
When I was first learning Swedish, my mother-in-law (Swedish) gave me a book called “Oscar is eating the house!” (my translation, because Swedish, as I later found out, doesn’t do progressive tenses.) Oscar, a baby who refused to eat the food his parents gave him, realised that in fact he was willing to chew on: nails, screws, planks, reinforced concrete, bricks, roof tiles, window glass (etc.)
You can imagine, I’m sure, how much of the vocabulary was familiar to me. Like apart from the verb ‘to eat’? Zero.
Kids’ books are written to entertain kids, e basta.
As regards your question: HOW MUCH IF AT ALL WAS ECO BEING TONGUE IN CHEEK
That’s a really good one. Actually, I think he was having a game, mostly with himself. Clearly there was a mass of research that went into the book – if you read the ‘postille’ he goes into great detail of all the books he read, and why.
But the actual structure of the book, he explains less well, I think. I said weeks back that I thought the Sherlock Holmes references showed that Eco’s understanding of the detective genre was limited, and in fact, così. He says himself, how could this have been a whodunnit if no one actually committed a crime? Well mate, you’ve not been paying attention. Detective fiction as a genre is, these days, all about the characters, and the gradual development from book to book (example: Rebus). Whether or not the crime is resolved is often secondary. Wow! You did loads of research, and created a fascinating world, but why? My conclusion is that Eco just wanted to draw us into it, and that the mystery plot was of no more or less importance than the theological nonsense.
A presto!
Laura says
Thank you for the compliment, Minou! I do think knowing Spanish has helped a lot! By the way, your written Italian is very good! It still takes me a half hour to write 5 or 6 sentences in Italian! Lol And thanks to Daniel’s great advice about avoiding dictionary usage, I was able to read and understand your reply without it!
Can’t wait until our next club begins!
A presto!
Minou says
BENE!
minou says
grazie, Laura! Ho un amico chi ha visitato italia senza la lingua italiana, solo spagnolo! La mia GRANDE difficulta’ e’ comprendere la lingua parlata. A presto! minou
Doreen Roche says
Fantastic idea to start a book club,especially at this time. Enjoyed reading the shortened version and found it easier to understand as I got more into it.Enjoyed the tests also at end of each chapter!It would be great to continue a book club if possible,would be a challenge every week,thanks so much for doing same
Daniel says
Grazie, Doreen. We have other plans for the summer – the History of Rome series, which has been written (thirty episodes!) and is now being recorded. But we’ll certainly take on board that people enjoyed the book-club format. It’s been years that I’ve been trying to get people to comment. Perhaps I should have gone straight to Umberto Eco back in 2012!
Laura says
Does this mean we won’t have a book club in May? ☹️
No worries, though, I understand it has to be extremely time consuming on your part and you have to prepare for the summer!
Daniel says
I don’t know, Laura. Certainly not with free ‘riassunti’ as the Club has bills to pay. It’s not out of the question to have a book club based on whatever ebook I publish tomorrow (along with a link to the original text available online) but then there would be naked commercial intent. Vediamo.
Laura says
Daniel,
Naked commercial intent would be fine! I loved the book club experience and would definitely be willing to purchase the riassunti online for another one. I can’t speak for anyone else, but that week and a half or so that I spent reading the riassunti and reading everyone’s comments was the most enjoyable time I’ve had during the lockdown. Really gave me something to look forward to each day. I already miss the club. Un milione di grazie for everything you did to make it a success. I’m watching a Netflix series now in Italian called Il Processo (with English subtitles) and I am actually able to understand some of the words here and there and some of the dialogue. All thanks to this book club!
Laura
Helen Hensley says
I enjoyed this so much – I did not tackle the full book, but thoroughly enjoyed the riassunti and reading the comments of other readers. Both in relation to the riassunti and the full text.
the book club idea is brilliant – in reading your emails Daniel I think that might be the case. I do hope so!!
Congratulations!!
Helen
Stu Reininger says
Hi Daniel:
I believe I mentioned before that I had the original and was waiting to tackle it, then lo and behold, you chose it for your ‘” book club.” So, I got into it, taking your advice “senza” dictionary and skipping the complex prologue (which, obsessively, I went back to); and then I, slowly, really dived in., absolutely enjoying the theological and historical minutiae, much of which resonated with my previous studies of the 13th and 14th Centuries… So, of course the “riassunti” got ahead of me.. By the time Chapter VII appeared.. I hadn’t finished my Ch. VII…and am still wading through it.;the third monk has just met his end… Now, you’ve gone and published the final denouement…. .. which, of course, I refuse to read, until I darn well get there….So, anyway…thanks al lot, The book ain’t easy, but I’m so enjoying it….. also digging the poetry…..sr
Daniel says
Forza, Stu! Keep going at your own pace, and really don’t sneak ahead and read the ending. The last fifty pages of Eco’s book were unputdownable, in my opinion. You’re going to love them. And then, after 503 pages, think how pleased you’ll be with yourself. I was!
Rosalind says
Top marks to the writer of the riassunti, to Daniel for all his work and also to all the participants who seem to have made such important strides.
I have read a number of books in Italian starting with translations of Agatha Christie (good for beginners because we are familiar with her world and there is a lot of dialogue, cf Daniel and John Grisham), some Montalbano books by Camilleri (you have to get used to liberal peppering of Sicilian terms) and also two books about South Tirol which I love (Eva dorme and Eredità). Also L’amante senza fissa dimora (more difficult) about which I have written a piece in Corsican and submitted to a competion (don’t expect a prize but its fun to participate, visible here if anyone would like to see how Corsican compares to Italian : http://tonutimpesta.blogspot.com/2020/03/premiu-timpesta-2020-lamante-senza.html?m=1 if I’m allowed to post a link).
This book seems harder to me either because it really is or because I’m not concentrating on Italian at the moment. I can’t say I would pounce on another book by Eco but had already made a timid start on Cristo si è fermato a Eboli by Carlo Levi which seems a lot easier.
As regards stylistic elements = difficulty, I would say the frequent use of the passato remoto, which I understand easily but even so it breaks my reading stride. Anyone else feel this way?
Again, a big thank you. I thoroughly enjoy this feeling of being in a group all reading the same book and chipping in with comments.
Isabel says
Dear Rosalind,
Thanks about the tip for using Agatha Christie in Italian – something I might actually be able to get my hands on and use those instead of easy readers: the plots are boring for me and I tend to abandon them but I’m shockingly superficial and a big fan of whodunnits
I followed the link and was fascinated by all the Corsican words that seemed so familiar, with some twists. I can’t say I read your piece thoroughly but I’ve bookmarked it to try and read later …. anyway, the obvious differences seem to be the use of ‘u’ at the end of nouns and the actual letter ‘j’ instead of ‘g’ with a softening vowel.
I must go and see if I can find a spoken Corsican Youtube video to hear what it sounds like.
Daniel says
the plots are boring for me and I tend to abandon them but I’m shockingly superficial
I have published over a hundred original stories by young Italians who a.) needed the work, and b.) wouldn’t have ever got a chance elsewhere (the publishing industry being what it is.) I’ll put my hand on my heart and say that yes, perhaps, five percent of them were ‘boring’, but no less so than easy readers published by ‘real’ publishing companies that I’ve bought myself in the past when I was a student.
The rest, though? I enjoyed them all. Some engaged me as much as ‘real’ books, some are startlingly original, some are good writing, some are full of holes but worth the cover price anyway, in my opinion. Perhaps the editor (usually me) should have tried harder. Overall, I was proud and honoured to have played a part in putting such material, written by talented Italian teachers who know well what will interest and benefit their students, in front of an, albeit small, global audience. Most reviewers gave five-stars.
So yes, perhaps shockingly superficial is apt.
N.b. The riassunti, which seem to have been well-received, were written by one of our regular ‘easy reader’ writers, and to the same format.
Isabel says
OK Daniel, That’s me whipped.
I wasn’t talking about the easy readers you publish as I’ve only come across this website with the beginning of the book club, Most of the ones I’ve tried have been in short story format and aimed at a younger demographic.
I apologise for any offense I’ve given and would be happy to support young Italian writers by choosing to purchase one of theirs to read next.
Daniel says
Seems like it was a misunderstanding, Isabel, though a rather unfortunate one given that publishing ebooks and selling online lessons pays for this website and for the materials we have been enjoying using together.
No hard feelings then.
Daniel
Moya says
Grazie Mille Daniel for all the effort in starting the book club. Got the book on kindle and struggled a lot but 10 for the riassunta which kept me reading. Gave myself 8 for that ( I was pleasantly surprised at how much I could understand without a dictionary ) but would drop to a sad 2 for the text proper..I have just got the English version as very interested in the arguments and curious to know about the bits I missed. Another book would be great now that I’ve UMBERTO sotto la mia CINTURA!!
Chris says
Ciao a tutti,
Congratulations to those of you reading the entire book. I started on kindle and git to the end of Il Primo Giorno I think …. hard to know with the Kindle lay out. I realised it was only a sample to stopped there but contained with the riassunti. I started useing a dictionary which I knew wasn’t the best idea. After Daniel’s “why using a dictionary is dumb” I stopped well 98%. When I just couldn’t get to grips with some occasional things I,d take a peak. The enjoyment was far greater without the dictionary! So thank you for the push Daniel.
The text was tough going but I ploughed through. Perhaps also, not having an in depth interest in theology didn’t help my motivation with these parts. The conversations were easier.
The riassunti were great though I felt somewhat a fraud when others were pushing through the book.
So to your questions Daniel:-
1. I have read a few children’s stories like Goldilocks and the 3 Little Pigs before venturing into the Easy Readers from here. A1 and A2 stories which I enjoyed despite using the dictionary! I’ll often download the free chapter of harder levels just to see how much I can understand.
Just before the book club started I was reading un libro di giallo on the Kindke app. It was slow going as yes …. you guessed it the good old dictionary checking! I now read it without as much as possible!!! I repeat, it’s so much more enjoyable without!!!
2. Coped as well as an A1/A2 might! Ha! I tried and it was interesting to see the sentence structures. I dipped into the English version out of interest to see how it translated and then knew why I was struggling with the Italian. Just a different writing style than books I normally read. No criticism intended! The subject background is not my remit so found it tough going through those explanations.
3. I would definitely give the author more of a read. If you dint push yourself you don’t succeed! I’d try other authors too as the same as in reading English books you find favourite authors.
4. Book- don’t feel I can rate it not having read the whole book. Perhaps a 6 for my progress with pushes from Daniel being extremely helpful. Book club a definite 10 A*+. I hope it will continue! Your hard work is greatly appreciated! Grazie mille!
Daniel says
And your participation likewise, Chris!
Laura says
Chris,
Just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed your comments! When I think back to the ones about the short lives of many of the monks in the abbey, I still have a good chuckle!
Laura
Thomas Vanderslice says
Thanks, Daniel for the push to read Eco’s capolavoro; it’s been on a shelf for years but first having attempted “Il pendolo di Foucault,” I let the ‘rosa’ lie. At any rate I’ve finished the book sans dizionario and enjoyed it greatly (although I think Mr. Eco was a bit of a show-off and not strong comnpetition for Dashiel Hammet – sp.? – but then secondo me writing a giallo was not his primary aim).
Suffering through some of the long digressions one finds sections of great dramatic power, p.e. il processo di Remigio il cellario con Bernardo Gui l’inquisatore.
Nel futuro “Pinocchio” e sempre divetente ed istruttive; con “Il fu Mattia Pascal’ di Pirandello userebbero il nostril cervelli; e avrebbero un altro lungo libro con “La storia” di Elsa Morante.
Mille grazie.
Daniel says
Bravo Thomas for finishing the book!
Yes, you’re right, that Bernado Gui was a nasty piece of work, wasn’t he?
Interesting, I thought, that Eco didn’t bother with the usual conventions of ‘happy endings’ for at least some of his victims (none, it seems…) There was no messing about ‘saving’ anyone from the inquisition – it’s politics so they’ll be killed, that’s how it is in history, tough luck! And given that we’re here in the ‘final comments’ section (SPOILER ALERT) did I read right that Adso has no more fun to the end of his days while Guglielmo is wiped from history by the Black Death? Not a man (or woman) left standing!
Laura says
Wow! I was hoping maybe that Guglielmo and Adso went on to solve more mysteries together. I know, of course, that Eco never wrote another book about them, but you know how in your own mind you like to picture what eventually became of the main characters? So sad! Since I only read the riassunti I didn’t know about what happened to the crime solving duo until now.
Daniel says
you know how in your own mind you like to picture what eventually became of the main characters
Having the reader ‘identify’ with the characters is a staple of popular fiction, of course, and no bad thing either. I’m no literature expert, but it wasn’t always so, and Eco and his mates from the ‘sixties onwards had fun challenging or messing around with such conventions.
Our ‘easy readers’, of which the riassunti is basically one, are largely driven along by the power of you, the student, wanting to know what happens next, ideally hoping for a happy ending! It’s banal, but from a language-learning point of view, totally effective, given that it taps right into the basic human needs, such as wanting to know what happens next and identifying the ‘good guy’ and ‘bad guy’ in every situation.
I didn’t write this as an advertisement, but would mention that if you liked the simplified version of THIS story, you would probably enjoy the ‘Anselmo’ trilogy that Francesca Colombo, who did our ‘riassunti’ wrote. HER medieval detective has many similar traits and a cast of really nasty historical characters to contend with! Look at the free sample chapter(s) before you buy, to check the level is not-too hard for you.
We sold lots of copies, but didn’t get many reviews, don’t know why. Perhaps people didn’t like them. But I did, and would recommend them as one final intermediate step before starting on ‘real’ detective fiction, of which there is of course masses available. Back in the day, when I was teaching myself Italian by reading, I enjoyed Sandrone Dazieri’s ‘Gorilla’ series, which at the time I found startlingly original, much fun, and with stuff to say about contemporary Italy that really gave me insights into the place I had ended up living.
Mary says
Phew! Standing on top of the mountain at last! 10/10 for the book, my reading progress and everyone’s comments.
Would definitely like to do it again! Bravo Daniel! Bravissimi tutti!
For me reading in another language is like solving a puzzle it makes me feel like I have the key to crack a secret code! I think that applies whatever “level” you are at.
I always have a book in Italian on the go, but even though I don’t look up words, I dawdle along and consequently probably take a month or longer to finish it. Hence the book club has given me a real boost and challenge. I have wanted to keep up with the riassunti and share comments with the result that I have had so much reading practice over the last two weeks that I am processing what I am reading and maintaining concentration more easily and much much faster than before.
When I come across words/phrases I don’t understand, I carry on to the next bit that I do understand, make a split second decision as to whether I have now understood enough and hopefully feel able to just carry on regardless. I don’t revert to English in my mind, I focus on the context, the people and imagine the situation, no need to know all the grisly details of a murder! I have skimmed over those long theological speeches and focused on the final argument
Yes! I would read another book by Umberto Eco. For me learning a language involves learning about the country, its classical and popular culture, history, cuisine etc.etc. So much to learn!
PS. At the moment I am working my way through the “Commissario Ricciardi” series, by Maurizio de Giovanni.
Daniel says
Brava Mary! And thanks for sharing your approach.
Daniel
Laura says
Mary,
I feel the same as you about solving the puzzle/cracking the code. I actually find it more enjoyable to read and speak in another language because I get a workout for my brain! (Although of course I’m more competent reading and speaking in my native English!) In fact, after starting to learn Italian a month ago, I was pleasantly surprised to know my brain still is there and can function at a higher level! (Just turned 54 in mid March — gosh, that sounds so much older than 53! Lol)
I have definitely enjoyed interacting with you in the book club!
Laura
Daniel says
In Italy, fifty-four is only just middle-aged, Laura. You’re only just past being called a ‘ragazza’!
Simeon Underwood says
Daniel — to take your questions in turn:
1. I have read a few books through in Italian, but nothing on anything like this scale. When you first proposed it as the book to read, I thought you were pazzo, given its length and complexity. But now I am very glad you did, as it has been a real challenge and I have a real sense of achievement. I am now 30 pages from the end, without skimming or skipping, and have enjoyed it enormously.
2. Yes, even the difficult bits got easier over time. I think I sensed a certain amount of repetition or overlap, for example in the material on heresies or the church history.
3. I read ‘Foucault’s Pendulum’ in English many years ago. But for the purpose of the Book Club perhaps it might be better to use a different author, if only for variety of styles (though part of the point of Eco’s book is the variety of styles it contains).
4. Marks out of ten for the project 9 — my only gripe is the way you suddenly picked up speed between (i think) riassunti 5 and 6.
Minou asks how much of the book is tongue in cheek. I certainly think a lot of it is playful, in a variety of different ways. I noticed several passages which appeared to be parodies of genres or even individual authors, for example. And I suspect that in the philosophical passages there may be some bits which relate not to medieval philosophy but to contemporary philosophical debates. I think there is also a fundamental joke about quite how useless Gugliemo and Adso are as detectives while mimicking many of the procedures and cliches of detective fiction !
Daniel — would you or any of your team be able to recommend further reading on the book and on Eco ? I am especially interested in whether any of the politics relates to the Italy of the 1970s and 1980s.
Thanks once again for doing this. It has been a very enjoyable experience — and an excellent distraction from what is going on in the world outside our flat !
Daniel says
Well done, Simeon, for (nearly) finishing the whole book!
my only gripe is the way you suddenly picked up speed between (i think) riassunti 5 and 6.
Well, that wasn’t really my fault… The riassunti were written a long time before the book club was conceived of, and natually the writer left out the whole heresy/inquisition part, which is a huge part and particularly concentrated in certain parts of the ‘real’ book. And I did encourage people to read at their own pace – there was no requirement to keep up with the ‘riassunti’, which were mostly aimed at people much less proficient and confident than you or I.
I think there is also a fundamental joke about quite how useless Gugliemo and Adso are as detectives – perhaps you’re right, but I thought that Eco quite clearly made the point about the emergence and value of a more scientific way of thinking through the Guglielmo character and his interactions with others of his time who hadn’t taken that step forward. Perhaps we take the scientific method for granted these days. Conan Doyle’s famous detective used ‘science’ and ‘logic’ too, of course, but far less convincingly – Holmes’ thinking remained ‘magic’ to Watson, the police and his clients and suspects, probably to most readers, too. Whereas Frate G. takes his time and figures things out in a much more human and believable way.
Lynne F says
A little behind I set myself the goal to finish by Sunday and i have.! Previously I have only read short stories and Easy Readers. This certainly was a challenge and I admit to not understanding all but with the help of the excellent riassunti I managed to keep up with the plot. The pace was scary but skimming through the really difficult bits helped. The more i read the more I realised I could understand and so my reading speed increased.. My first thoughts were you had chosen a book that would defeat all except fluent readers of Italian but i have to admit it turned out to be a good choice..
My effort fluctuated at the beginning I would say 8/ 10 then I got a bit bogged down and almost gave up so it would say 2/10 , But then I regained my enthusiasm and finished.
The whole book club project a definite 10/ 10, You are obviously passionate about helping people learn a language and have put a lot of effort into it, greatly appreciated by myself and others, Your encouragement and challenges have really helped , as have the comments from other book clubbers. I hope i hope the project continues. A huge thank you Daniel
Daniel says
Bravissima Lynne F!
First ever ‘real’ book in Italian and you read 503 pages? You should be very pleased with yourself. I’m proud of you!
Lynne F says
Thanks Daniel, without the Book club I would never have thought of reading this and if I had done so I am certain I would have given up. but the challenge was set and I accepted.. I am so glad I persevered, the reading did get easier as I progressed and my comprehension. slowly improved. i look forward to the next book .
Daniel says
the reading did get easier as I progressed
It ususally does, Lynne. The hard part, of course, is to keep at it! So well done.
Margaret says
I’ve found your input very helpful and encouraging, Daniel. Having found it in a charity shop, I had read ‘Le Avventure di Pinocchio’ before embarking on this. It was really amusing and the chapters are very manageable. ‘Il Nome della Rosa’ has been much more challenging. I’m nowhere near the end. I will continue at my own pace and find out ‘whodunnit’ at some point. Also, from a charity shop, I have ‘L’Avvocato di Strada’ – a John Grisham novel in translation – so that will be my next book in Italian. My score for ‘Il Nome della Rosa’ – 8 out of 10 because, at times, I think the lists, descriptive or discussion sections are too long. That said, I am enjoying the book and it isn’t a chore to pick up and read a bit. Marks for the Book Club – 10 out 10. I would never have thought of reading this in the original Italian. It seemed like a great idea – and it was! Thank you to everyone.
Daniel says
L’Avvocato di Strada was one of my early reads in Italian, too!
Patricia says
Hi Daniel,
Thank you so much for this book club! Unfortunately or fortunately my book still hasn’t arrived, so, I was able to enjoy the riassunti with out a conscience & make myself leave the dictionary alone! Like John I would like to know more about the theological arguments, so maybe when my book eventually arrives I may dip my toe in!
Apart from reading your easy readers, which I have enjoyed, not least for the”Italian quirkiness, this is my first Italian novel, however, I can’t really claim that, as I only read the riassunti! Yes I would read other Italian novels, giving any genre ago, because, in my opinion, one of the joys of learning another language is that it gives one a window into their culture / history.
In rating my experience 10 (for the riassunti), 7 for my progress & in resisting the dictionary, 10 for the book club experience. However, I have particularly found your mentoring, beneficial ,thank you Daniel
Daniel says
I have particularly found your mentoring, beneficial
Thanks for that, Patricia. Sometimes it feels as if I’m banging my head against a brick wall!
June Farrel says
Wow I`ve done it . It`s 11.30pm which is quite early considering that some night it was 1.30am by the time I got to bed. The story is fascinating though I have to admit that I skipped large chunks I would love to be encouraged to read another book, perhaps not quite so long or so deedy. Of course I could always try the Dante, the first few chapters of which I studied for my university course some 70 years ago.. Thank you Daniel and the team. Great work
Daniel says
Bravissima, June!
Helen D says
Hi Daniel.
I am still chugging with the original text and refuse to jump ahed by using your texts HOWEVER I do refer to them at the end of each section to check on how much I have grasped by reading the original without resorting to a dictionary. Sometimes I surprise myself and sometimes not but either way, there are gains so I will persist.
Thanks for your ideas and input.
Daniel says
Forza, Helen! Keep turning the pages.
minou says
Thank you again, Daniel. In thinking forward for BC (book club) reading, the lockdown truly enabled me (and probably others) to keep up the rapid pace (so, mi preoccupo di lettura futura.)
You sei un impegnante favoloso! I went back to some libri italiani which i couldn’t get thru before BC due to over reliance on dictionary. Now, after your tutelage, i’m reading through and enjoying!!! i’m astonished!!!! I’m looking forward to relying a lot on your websight!
Marjorie says
Thank you Daniel for your encouragement to read this book. My first ‘real’ book and it was a challenge! But I really wanted to get through it to find out “whodunnit”….. As a result my reading got easier and my confidence grew. Book Club was a really great idea and I give it 10/10. I realise this was a lot of work for you and for Francesca too, and I do appreciate it. I. have enjoyed everyone’s comments too.
Nelida Contreras says
Caro Daniel, sono una nonna che ha imparato l’inglese come seconda lingua . Quando sono andata en pensione qualche anno fa, ho cominciato a studiare il italiano nel tuo sito e seguito le tue lezione
Le ho trovato molto didattiche e ho goduto il tuo senso d’umore “POMI”
le tue chiacchiere in inglese mi hanno servito di aiuta per migliorare l’inglese
Avevo letto “Il nome della rosa” di quella maniera che tu ai consigliato, ho capito l’idea ma questa volta ho potuto seguire il libro originale anche ho visto un film molto antico il quale mi ha aiutato a avere una visione dell’abbazia, dei personaggi anche dell’epoca
Ho letto La Via Francigera che me ha piaciuto moltissimo
Questa è la prima volta che participo in un Book Club e sto imparando molto
Vorrei ringraziate per la tua dedicazione e per compartire con noi la tua vita personale Ho sentito l’intimità famigliare di sederci alla tavola a mangiare la pasta cucinata per il papà, conoscere i tuì figli da bambini, che adesso lavorano per te, conoscere Sofia la capa d’italiano, ha stato meraviglioso
Cari saluti
Nelida
Sent from my iPad
Daniel says
Ciao Nelida!
Many thanks for your kind feedback.
Daniel
Wendy Hartnell says
Anyone else still reading? I’m just about to start quarto giorno.
Daniel says
People are still reading, Wendy, I’m sure. If you haven’t given up, then well done to you! Keep turning the pages, skip the boring bits if you feel like it, and look forward to the last part, which is exciting! Forza!
Valerie says
I’m still reading, I’m not very far through… I’m only just about to start Primo giorno vespri!
Wendy Hartnell says
I mentioned to my Skype tutor that I was reading it and she said “what a coincidence, I’ve got a student in California reading it too!” I wonder if they’re on here somewhere!
Just got to a bit where Adso is mooning about thinking in Latin a lot and I’m certainly skipping those bits.
Daniel says
Adso can be a terrible bore…
Wendy Hartnell says
I read the original and skipped nothing although the history and theology went over my head. It’s not the first Italian book I’ve read but it was the hardest and the longest. Its given me confidence to go on to other classics. And I’ve really cut down on the dictionary use.
Rob Lee says
June 22nd (2020) just in case anyone thinks it might be 2021 by the time I would have finished.
Yor questions are good ones Daniel so here are my thoughts.
1. Yes this was my first real Italian book. I had read a very abridged version of “Va Dove Ti Porta Il Cuore” and some short stories for beginners/improvers in Italian. Yes I will be keeping on reading real Italian books. The bug has bitten deep. I loved it.
2. I would grade myself as A2/B1 so this was a tough assignment but i made a decision on page 1 that I wasn’t going to do it half-heartedly. I also decided later on that I wasn’t going to read it simply for the story of the murder investigation but to enter into the full Eco experience and read everything – even the Postille. I read the book club discussion re dictionary use with interest. I knew from the early pages that scan reading wouldn’t work for me as I didn’t know enough of the vocab to get the context that helps with educated guesses. There probably is a ratio of known to unknown words and at a certain level guessing meanings just doesn’t work. So I kept my google translate open beside me and used it liberally. I’m not boasting but I think I have understood nearly everything in the book, theology, history, Eco’s life philosophy, Adso’s random and exasperating thoughts on art love the Coena etc. – it just took a long time. As a trial I read the Postille without using a translator and I know far less of what Eco was trying to say in it. I will keep trying and will hopefully reach the required word ratio to ditch Google translate sometime.
3. I’m not sure if I would read more of Eco’s work. I would like to read some more of the well known books of Italian litt. I am thinking of Promessi Sposi (mentioned in the Postille and one I had heard spoken of in the Italian podcasts I listen to) but just to give my head a break I found a book in Italian about the rivalry between Coe nad Ovett in the 70’s 80’s. That was my era and I think it will be an easier read before I plunge into another heavy tome.
4. Marks out of 10….10 for the book, 10 for the book club abd yourself Daniel. Re my progress – I haven’t measured it yet but here is what I do. Your website has graded listening exercises. Before the start of “Il Nome” I was B1 reading A2 listening. I have done a lot of podcast listening as well as Eco reading in the last 3 months so I will read some B2 material and see if I find it easy and listen to some B1 excerpts and see if they are understandable in a way they weren’t 3 months ago. That way I know where I’m at. Maybe I’ll be going backwards as a divine punishment for using a dictionary – only kidding!
5. Final, final thought. “Il Nome” reminded me of CS Lewis and Music by John Miles ( a song from the 70’s. And here’s why. CS Lewis can write theological arguments where he counters the point made by person A with a brilliant answer by person B. But he then writes counter argument after counter argument each time trumping the next. Refer to the Lion Witch Wardrobe argument that ends with the “deeper magic from before the beginning of time” for a great example of what I mean. Eco writes a bit like that – just not quite as good, but my limited Italian puts him at an unfair disadvantage. John Miles song Music (was my first love) pulls together into one songs loads of different styles tempos and rhythms and (secondo me) Eco did that in a linguistic way with this book. So what was not to like.
ZHANG HAIXIA says
Devo dire che davvero grazie, con l’aiuto di questo meraviglioso riassunto riesco a finire questo bel lavoro di Eco.
Daniel says
Bravo!