We encourage you to buy and read the full version of Umberto Eco’s book! But if you can’t, due to the Corvid 19 emergency, here’s Chapter 6 of our ‘Riassunto facilitato per studenti di italiano L2, da Francesca Colombo’, which corresponds approximately to pp. 165-329 of the original Italian version.
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È notte fonda, e i due si avventurano fino allo scrittorio, per dare un’occhiata ai manoscritti del defunto Venanzio senza essere disturbati. Venanzio ha lasciato una pergamena con un messaggio in codice. Guglielmo la nasconde in fretta nel saio perché intravede una luce che si avvicina.
Poco dopo, un’ombra gli passa vicino e… gli ruba i suoi preziosi occhiali. Adesso non potrà più leggere la pergamena! Chi sarà stato? Adso si lancia all’inseguimento, ma il misterioso personaggio si è dileguato.
Il ragazzo ritorna da Guglielmo e i due si dirigono verso la biblioteca. Guglielmo ha individuato un passaggio segreto, attraverso l’ossario dell’abbazia, che conduce proprio alla biblioteca. Questa si presenta come un labirinto e, su tavoli e scaffali, vi sono erbe e prodotti allucinogeni che bruciano. Adso ne respira il fumo perciò, per qualche istante, è vittima di allucinazioni. Guglielmo lo fa sdraiare a terra finché si riprende e dice a bassa voce:
“Eravamo stati avvisati: nella biblioteca vi sono dei sistemi di difesa. Almeno ora abbiamo la conferma che i fantasmi sono un’invenzione. Chi entra e dice di aver visto degli spiriti è stato intossicato dai fumi delle erbe allucinogene”.
I due devono trovare l’uscita prima che faccia giorno, altrimenti verranno scoperti a trasgredire le regole dell’abbazia. Sembra impossibile, girano a lungo nelle stanze della torre senza riuscire ad orientarsi. Per fortuna, dopo alcune ore, incappano nel percorso che li conduce fuori. “La prossima volta” dice Guglielmo tirando un sospiro di sollievo “dovremo mappare la biblioteca”.
La mattina successiva i monaci si accorgono che Berengario, l’aiuto bibliotecario, è scomparso. Adso e Guglielmo intuiscono che il suo corpo potrebbe essere nei bagni e, in effetti, lo trovano lì. Il cadavere ha la lingua e i polpastrelli neri. Nel suo saio stanno gli occhiali di Guglielmo… dunque era proprio Berengario ad aggirarsi per la biblioteca la notte prima!
Guglielmo, che ha recuperato gli occhiali, riesce a decifrare la pergamena scritta in codice da Venanzio, ma vi sono solo frasi sconnesse e apparentemente prive di senso. Sembrano degli appunti, presi di fretta da un libro, che si interrompono bruscamente. Il luogo messo in rilievo negli appunti è, ancora una volta, il “Finis Africae” ovvero il confine dell’Africa… Ma che significa?
Di notte, Guglielmo e Adso ritornano alla biblioteca e ne fanno una mappa. In ogni stanza è scritto sul muro un verso dell’Apocalisse. Eppure i versi tra loro non hanno un collegamento. “Proviamo a scriverne le iniziali” suggerisce Guglielmo. In effetti, le iniziali di ciascuna frase compongono i nomi delle regioni della Terra… ma certo! La biblioteca è dunque fatta a immagine della cartina del mondo. Guglielmo ha un’altra intuizione: bisogna andare nella zona ai confini dell’Africa. Qui dev’esserci la stanza in cui si nasconde il misterioso libro, per leggere il quale, sono morti i tre monaci.
Adso corre verso la stanza dell’Africa ma vede venirgli incontro un orribile spettro e scappa terrorizzato. Guglielmo, che gli è dietro, guarda meglio: “È solo uno specchio deformante, fifone! Ti sei spaventato per la tua stessa immagine”.
Dietro allo specchio c’è una stanza, ma è murata, e sembra impossibile accedervi…
Glossario
saio: sackcloth
intravede: glimpses
pergamena: parchment
si lancia all’inseguimento: starts to chase
eppure: still, but, on the other hand
iniziali: the first letters
fifone: coward, chicken
murata: walled, bricked up
Esercizio
Metti in ordine gli eventi:
1. Adso è vittima di allucinazioni.
2. Berengario viene trovato morto nei bagni.
3. Un’ombra misteriosa ruba gli occhiali di Guglielmo.
4. Guglielmo e Adso si recano nello scrittorio.
5. Guglielmo riesce a decifrare la pergamena.
6. Guglielmo e Adso riescono ad uscire dalla biblioteca.
7. Guglielmo prende una pergamena scritta da Venanzio.
8. Guglielmo e Adso si perdono nella biblioteca.
Soluzioni | Back to Italian Literature page
Daniel says
Ciao book-clubbers!
I’m guessing there are not more than a dozen or two people reading the actual book of ‘Il nome della rosa’ together, though that’s a perfectly good number for a book club. Plus perhaps a hundred or so reading the riassunti only.
Whatever. Well done to everyone who’s got this far!
As you can see if you read Capitolo 6 of our ‘riassunto’, this is the action-packed central section of the story, with lots going on! The text above corresponds to over 160 pages of Eco’s book, so anyone reading the full version will have lots to do over the weekend (not that it’s a race – go at your own pace!)
Our riassunto, by the way, skips the heresy/inquisition sub-plot completely. That part of the story intersperses the action/adventure sections and extends the book considerably compared (I suppose) to the more viewer-friendly TV or film adaptations.
If you’re reading the ‘real’ book but find the heretic-hunt heavy-going, scan a few chapters ahead (why not?) and use the mini-descriptions given at the beginning of each chapter to identify which sections of Eco’s text match the events above and which parts you ‘don’t have to read’. Then just skip the parts that Francesca left out of our summary.
Does that feel like cheating??
Well then, time to knuckle down for some serious reading! Personally, I think that the effort I made to read Eco’s entire text, from beginning to end, was more than worth the time and trouble it involved. But we’re not all interested in the same things, are we? And as the various abridged versions of the story (the RAI recording, the films) demonstrate, there’s no disgrace in focusing on the thriller components and ignoring, or just skimming over, the rest.
Reflecting on something club-member (and very expert and experienced language-teacher) Penny wrote in a comment recently, reading is not a passive process. You don’t have to consume the text in the way the author intended. You have choices! You can, for example, look ahead a few pages to see how long a ‘hard’ section goes on for, so you can decide whether to read it before or after your next meal. Or not at all, because it’s a ‘boring bit’.
You can decide to go into something in more depth, or more usually when reading, to NOT ‘approfondire’ a term or subject that you’re not familiar with. You surely don’t read every word of texts in your own language, as over the years you will have developed ‘tricks’ for getting through texts (whether they be novels or things you have to read in your work) in an efficient, practical way.
You don’t reach for the dictionary each time you don’t understand a word in English, do you? And don’t protest that you do, or that there are no words you don’t know in English, because it’s surely not true!
Go read any scientific article on Covid 19 (say from a medical or biology periodical) and that will surely prove my point.
Or, if you’re a scientist or medic and so actually would understand the words and concepts that would baffle me, go leaf through some pages of the Financial Times, the Wall Street Journal or the Economist to find dozens or hundreds of terms that might look FAMILIAR but which, if I pressed you, you would be forced to admit that you could not define or explain.
None of that is bad, Penny was saying. It’s the way people really read, and so the way you should read when you tackle a text in a foreign language, assuming your objective is ‘understanding’ the text (i.e. following the story or scanning to find anything that might be relevant to your work) rather than reading ‘to learn new words’, an inherently foolish idea.
Why is using a dictionary as you read and listing all the new words you come across dumb?
Because it is neither fish nor fowl. The dictionary use is preventing you from reading effectively and efficiently. You’re not, therefore, improving your ability to read in your foreign language.
Equally pointless is the actual vocabulary-study component, even though you are investing lots of time doing it.
For is your declared purpose to learn the set of Italian vocabulary that we can define as ‘all the words Umberto Eco knows that you don’t, especially the ones related to medieval history and poison’?
I doubt it.
If you’ve time and energy to spend actively learning new vocabulary, wouldn’t it be better used, for example, studying the notes your online teacher has made for you of words you didn’t know during the conversation you had with her (so things you actually wanted to say but couldn’t)? Or reading an article on a topic that is particularly relevant to your interests or work, and learning the specific terms used in that, instead? Which you will then soon use, or at least hear, when speaking the language?
It’s improbable that you’ll read all 160 pages of this central section of ‘Il nome della rosa’ this weekend. It took me at least a couple of days, and I’ve been reading in Italian for more than twenty years.
But if you are ‘gung-ho’ enough to try, why not also decide that this weekend, from Friday to Sunday and then henceforth, you will read more WISELY, with a better understanding of WHY and so WHAT and HOW you read?
It’s would be a valuable lesson…
Renee Bosma says
Hi Daniel
Thanks for your summaries – they are a great help. I started reading the book following your advice but it soon turned out to be more of a struggle than fun and took me too much time. However, I didn’t want to give up so I changed strategy.
From each of the 7 days I first read the mini-description and select one which I think might be worth reading. The rest of the book – yes I know it’s flagrant cheating – I read in Dutch. It’s the only way I can fully enjoy the contents. After all, that’s what books are for – or?
Looking forward to your next riassunti.
Ciao
Daniel says
“It’s the only way I can fully enjoy the contents”
I daresay that’s true, Renee. The customer is always right, after all.
However, ‘fully’ isn’t the most helpful adverb when you’re talking about foreign language-learning, wouldn’t you say? You can enjoy doing something even if you aren’t (yet) able to do it perfectly or completely. So why not bin the Dutch copy and go with ‘partially’ instead?
The idea being that you’ll a.) learn a lot in a fun way, and b.) move TOWARDS the point at which you can ‘fully’ enjoy reading something that isn’t in Dutch.
My wife, who is Italian, reads passionately and mostly in English. I suppose that there would have been a time, decades back as a teenager, when reading in Italian would have been easier for her. But that at some point she decided that she’d rather read the text the way it was written. Bet she’s glad now (literally thousands of original versions later) that she didn’t give up the first time she tried English instead of Italian.
Lynne B says
I’m reading the full novel in italian and so far, thanks to our lock down here in NZ, am keeping up. Sometimes I give in and look something up – generally if not knowing gets under my skin enough to prevent me enjoying moving on to the next part of the story. But the biggest benefit for me has been to read EVERY day – sometimes to reread something from the previous day that didn’t quite click (with the benefit of having read the riassunto in the meantime), before moving on with the story, sometimes just plain moving on. But in general I’m finding the reading is like a bit like eating potato chips – a succession of “just one more” pages!
Helen Hensley says
Ciao Daniel
I am doing my very best to leave the dictionary completely out of reach. A habit which is hard to break, but probably explains why my ability to read and listen is not as good as it should be. I am getting there and, I think, getting better!
I am not reading the full book, but am thoroughly enjoying your shortened version.
Grazie mille
Helen
Helen
Daniel says
Thanks for the positive feedback, Helen!
Stella says
I am reading the full book but ignoring chunks of description that I do not understand
I do not use a dictionary but I am really pleased when I can read and understand a section of the text.
I am going at my own pace and not trying to keep up, as I am not a seasoned Italian reader.
I find that quite satisfying.
Daniel says
You’re right to, Stella. Well done!
And of course you should go at your own pace. As Dory says “Just keep swimming!”
Rosalind says
I feared there were some big chunks of text coming our way because on my Kindle I’m only at 27% but yesterday we were already up to the fifth summary out of 8😳. On the Youtube Audio play I’m following the proportion seems to be even more extreme.
Had better get down to reading then.
Daniel says
You have the entire weekend, Rosalind. I don’t expect you had other plans, did you??
Magdolna Négyesiné Fenyvesi says
Ciao a tutti!
Thanks very much for this shortened version. I don’tuse a dictionary, but to tell the truth I have already read the whole original version in Hungarian (my mother tongue) which helps a lot. I think it can also help not to use a dictionary but to enjoy a literary piece if I read the story in my madrelingua and so I have a general understanding of the characters, setting,etc.
Let’s keep on reading!!!!!
Zsuzsanna Snarey says
Glad to meet another fellow Hungarian! I have seen the television version which helps a lot. I am enjoying the reading.
Carol says
I think you’re totally right in saying don’t use a dictionary when reading an Italian book. I think it causes you to switch between languages target think in the language you want to learn. That said, I have recently bought another Italian dictionary and I really like it. But it’s not an Italian-English one, it’s monolingual and aimed at italian schoolchildren so it’s hard (for me) but not REALLY REALLY hard 🙂
minou says
Carol: Appreciate your point about “switch between languages!” Also your dizionario italiano: Wonderful idea. Thank you.
Ruth says
i’m only reading the riassunti but enjoying them, as well as the comments from those who are tackling the full text.
I was so happy and amused today to come across the word ‘fifone’, which I Irecognised immediately although I hadn’t seen it written or heard it spoken since I spent time with my Italian grandchildren watching a cartoon series called ‘I cane fifone’ many years ago. Happy memories!
Daniel says
Leone il cane fifone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJiAQAV38M
Ruth says
I love it! And understand more of it now!
minou says
Great link! Thank you both
Helen Hensley says
Grazie mille Daniel – fantastic!!!
Helen
Annalinda says
Il cane fifone e` stupendo.
Zsuzsanna Snarey says
Wise words Daniel. I have been reading the original Italian but no matter how hard I try I cannot keep up the pace. Even leaving out big chunks doesn’t help. But I haven’t given up yet! I am enjoying the challenge.
I sometimes look up words on my Talking translator App and it clarifies things. It is not as intrusive as using a proper dictionary.
To cheat even more I have an English translation on Kindle and AFTER having read a passage in Italian I check to see how much I have understood. I am rewarded with a pleasant surprise! But no I did not understand it as well as the translation.
I still remember having to read Great Expectation for GCE after arriving in England with no knowledge of the language. I had to look up two words in evey line!
It was not enjoyable.
Daniel says
We are all different, and I know that other people have read or are reading the versions in their own language or English at the same time as the Italian.
Personally though, that seems like total masochism! Keep comparing what you know less well with what you can do easily? Isn’t that totally de-motivating? It’s self-flagellation, like with the penitents in the story (you might not yet have got to that part yet, if you’re busy looking up every word…)
Daniel’s rule no. 1: NO DICTIONARY
Daniel’s rule no. 2: NEVER READ SOMETHING IN THE LANGUAGE YOU’RE LEARNING THAT YOU HAVE ALREADY READ IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE
Why rule no.2? Because if you’re not reading for the usual reasons – to enjoy, to follow, to find out whodunnit – then it’s artificial, or worse, it’s ‘studying’. And reading and studying are not the same things.
Daniel’s rule no. 3 (more of an aphorism, really): Studying is boring, so difficult to keep up. Whereas reading (when done properly) is fun, so easy to sustain.
Zsuzsanna Snarey says
Daniel,
I am improving! I am avoiding looking up words and enjoying the read in Italian! I have almost caught up with the riassunto. Maybe I will be there by the endo of the day..
At least I don’t have to pass an exam on this book!
I am looking forward to finishing it.
Zsuzsanna
Thomas Vanderslice says
Benche la mia madrelingua sia l’Inglese, occasionalmente uso un dizionzionario italiano..
Mi piace ricordando dell’eresie da letture precedenti.
Margaret says
Thanks, Daniel, for all the support you are giving. The ‘hard’ parts being there for a reason made sense – so today I went back and read through a difficult part that I had skipped over yesterday – several pages of discussion about wealth, poverty – and a lot else! I didn’t understand it all, but what I did understand was actually quite interesting and worth the effort.
Pam says
Ciao Daniel and bookclubbers,
. I havent caught up in the full text yet, as mentioned a tough hill to climb. However I am enjoying the summaries, reading the views of other bookclubbers about the text and how the story is unfolding.
For anyone in Australia please note that on Thursday this week SBS in showing the recent mini series Name of the Rose again. Thursday at midnight (seems an appropriate time somehow) both episodes. You can either stay up and watch or record it.
Isabel says
Oh, golly – thank you Pam – i’ll set tv up for recording!! Grazie mille.
I’m in Victoria and i’m pretty well locked down, being nearly 70 with RA.
This book reading club is giving me great relief from obsessively reading about the virus news.
Pam says
Prego Isabel. Like you in lockdown, similar age and trying to give the news a miss..
Carol says
Ciao fellow Victorians Pam and Isabel,
Thanks for information on the mini-series on SBS. Perhaps it will be on SBS On Demand so that we can watch it at a suitable time.
It’s really lovely to imagine so many people reading this text all at the one time, all over the world.
I am ploughing through the original text…. I started with an English version, but then I gave up. Daniel is right! We just need to go slowly. So now I read the riassunto, so that I know what to expect, and then I plod along, page by page in Italiano. I enjoy reading in alta voce. It’s like I get to read the words, and also hear them. Whatever works.
Buon lettura.
Pam says
Ciao Carol, yes I think SBS will have ‘on demand’. after the repeat. . Like you I am reading the original text aloud.. I do find it helps the understanding.
Buona lettura
minou says
Buongiorno. Daniel, Italy has been so much on my mind during the pandemic. I sincerely hope the best for you and yours there (I get so swept up in the book-focus that I have neglected to say this).
Well, your relentless “no dictionary” lectures are paying off — I finally weaned myself from the “switching languages”(Carol’s insight above) dictionary use and I see an up-tick in my enjoyment of and involvement with the text as well as an increased willingness to live in “textual confusion” (which is hopefully temporary). And I’m using more italiano daily outside of language classes. So, once again thank you!.
Daniel says
Prego!
Simeon Underwood says
Blimey Daniel ! Your first five riassunti cover about 200 pages and you then throw 160 pages at us in one go, with another 160+ to fit in by Thursday ! I will do my best. It may mean that I don’t sleep between now and Thursday, but no matter … Just please don’t choose anything longer as your next book (and, by the way, I have enjoyed this so much I really hope there will be a next book).
I also enjoyed Minou’s phrase about “your relentless no dictionary lectures”. You are of course completely right. But this does remind of those scenes in Montalbano (the television version; I don’t know if this happens in the books) where Fazio pulls pezzi of paper with important information on them from his jacket pocket and Montalbano shouts at him and tells him to put his pesky pezzi away or he will make him eat them — I translate loosely, but not very loosely. For Fazio those pezzi are the fruits of difficult and meticulous research, and a psychological prop. For Montalbano they simply get in the way of solving the crime …
Colleen says
Boundi, Daniel!
I am enjoying reading the whole book in Italian- skipping over some things, using the riassunti and the audiolibro to keep me going. I am probably going to read the whole thing again in a few months (or years!) as my Italian improves. I have already done that with some beginner books and I am delighted that I can just read them! A bit like going back to easy pieces on the piano! They are no longer a struggle, but fun to play. The funny thing is I have become a tad more confident about commenting (very briefly) in Italian on some Youtube and Facebook posts. Thank you for keeping us going. I would not have tackled this particular book on my own.
Jane says
Ciao a tutti
Before the book club, my experience of reading in Italian has been limited to modified books for language learners or short texts from magazines.
I was happy to take on the advise of no dictionary and skipping chunks of boring bits as this is how I read in English. What has been difficult is working out which are the bits I can leave out without missing the main threads of the story. I am guessing that this is a skill which will only improve as I read more/read more of this type of text. I am starting to rely more and more on the easy reader.
Thanks for a very new learning experience. The comments are always helpful and motivating.
Mary says
Wow! This section has been keeping me busy. Haven’t quite caught up in the (Kindle) book to where the riassunto ends, (I know that doesn’t matter) but like a kid on a day out, I’m nearly there. I feel a real sense of achievement because I am making myself read more quickly. Its a bit like brain training!
Gosh! What these monks get up to in the dark, apart from killing each other of course!
Laura says
Mary,
Your last comment gave me a good laugh! Lo guiro, una risata realmente buona! I was thinking the very same thing, and I wonder what il prossimo delitto sara?!!
Laura
Laura says
Daniel,
First of all, I want to echo the thoughts of minou above — Italy has been on my mind a lot lately with this pandemic, and I hope that you and your family are doing well, I also hope that all the participants of our club and their families are doing well. I’ve been so caught up in the plot of this book that I, like minou, have neglected to say this. The Covid-19 virus seems to be so unpredictable, mostly seriously affecting older people with underlying conditions, but I just heard that 41 year old Broadway actor, Nick Cordero, who has spent over two weeks in intensive care due to Covid-19, had to have his leg amputated yesterday due to complications. To me, 41 years old is relatively young. So right now I’m sending up prayers for all of us, and I am so thankful to have this book club to keep me enjoying life and learning. It keeps me thinking of positive things!
Second, I have a comment about the diccionario. I have been studying Italian on the DuoLingo app for a month now, still at a very elementary level, doing exercises where I translate sentences like “A nephew is the son of your brother or your sister” or “The pasta is on the plate” into Italian and vice versa. I still don’t have any knowledge of tenses except for present tense! It has been a pleasure finding this book club, and I am learning so many new words and phrases, but I did use a dictionary that I stumbled upon for the first few readings. It’s an online dictionary called ReversoContext, where you can copy and paste a sentence or two and get a really decent translation. And I’ve been keeping a journal of the new words I’m learning, especially those I will want to use in future conversation. Thanks to this club I now have a working vocabulary and could write my first paragraph in Italian yesterday, even though it took a half hour! So exciting! I do want you to know that I have followed your advice for the past two readings, reading everything in Italian first and trying (actually quite successfully) to understand the gist of the story. Of course being fluent in Spanish does help some! But then I go back to the ReversoContext app to see if I missed anything, because the plot of this book is so interesting.
Nonostante/Nevertheless…
I want you to know I agree with what you suggest about reading without the dictionary. When I was studying Spanish, with every book I read, starting with easy readers and graduating to novels, I had my electronic dictionary out all the time, and it WAS an agonizing process. I believe that’s why I eventually stopped reading books in Spanish, because it was like more of a chore than a fun activity. And this is coming from someone really fluent verbally in Spanish. So now I’m thinking of pulling out some of the Spanish novels I saved (but never read) and reading them without the aid of any dictionary, but for right now I’m having too much fun with this book club and studying Italian! I hope we will go through another book together!
Ciao a tutti!
Laura
Dawn Tyers says
My copy of the Italian version of the book finally arrived a couple of days ago from Italy so I am way behind everyone else. I am enjoying the riassunti and will persevere with the book. The advice about ditching the dictionary is well made, and also skipping ‘boring’ bits. I do find re-reading certain passages beneficial, and it is definitely better to just keep going. Thanks so much for the suggestion – doubt I would have chosen this otherwise.
Wendy Hartnell says
I’m relieved to be starting this section as the last one had some long passages on heretics which I read but didn’t necessarily follow. I’m looking forward to excitement in the library. I can’t now keep up with the summaries but am determined to finish.
This has actually inspired me to seek out more ‘real’ Italian I.e. not aimed at learners. This morning I listened to the first couple of episodes of a podcast series on Italian history and was pleased to follow the gist of it. . I think it’s time to wean myself off easy readers and Italian pop music! Having said that, I’ll always read any more easy readers on Dante, the Venetian cat!
Daniel says
It’s always sad to lose a customer, Wendy.
But of course, the whole point of ‘easy readers’, like training wheels on a bicycle, is to get users more quickly to the point at which they can do without them.
Well done you, then!
Wendy Hartnell says
Ah, well, I’m still taking lessons Daniel, so you haven’t lost me – I’m just buying different things!
Rob Lee says
Hi Daniel,
I know you’ll be the only one to read this so I’ll address my thoughts to you personally.
May 22nd and I’m still going strong. I deserve a knighthood (like Captain Sir Tom), well to be fair he has done a bit better than me. I was slowed a bit by breaking off to do some research on the history. It turns out that Eco’s historical details of the monk called Dolcino (and the gory details of his torture and demise) are factually accurate so I am extrapolating to presume that all the historical people and places mentioned are accurate. That makes the story all the better in my view, but it makes you wonder how Christianity survived if they were tearing each other apart for hundreds of years before the Reformation. In fact Luther seems now to just be another monk in a long line of those rebelling against the perceived wrongs in the church. Guilielmo is the one light in the darkness and his attitudes seem very modern and I wonder are his stated morals etc actually Eco’s own credo. I liked “Non conta la fede che un movimento propone, conta la speranza che offre” and “Spesso le favole dicono la verita”. Very 20th / 21st century.
With lockdown easing I’d better get a move on. This was my lockdown project. I hope Bologna is a more enjoyable place now that the shackles have come off. Best wishes.
Daniel says
Ciao Rob,
Who knows who may read, and be encouraged by, your comment? That’s the nice thing about website comments, they lie there, waiting to be discovered by someone who’s interested in the topic and can be bothered to read through the thread.
When you get to the end of the story, read the ‘Postille’ in which, amongst other topics, Eco explains his approach to historical research and how that shaped the book. I’m sure you’ll find it fascinating.
We’ve only been into Bologna once since the end of the lockdown, to collect mail from the school, and it looked fairly normal. But a lot of businesses (such as our school) remain cloased so a lot of people are still stuck at home, as if the lockdown was continuing. There’s more traffic on the roads and there are more people on the streets, but things (22nd May 2020 for any future readers) are not back to normal.
Sergey says
Hi Rob!
See, there is at least another one person, except Daniel, who has read your comment here.
Great to know that you have read the whole romance by Umberto Eco in its original, that’s cool!
My attention was attracted by a quote “Non conta la fede che un movimento propone, conta la speranza che offre”
Would you please tell me (in English, of course) how do you understand it?
Thank you!
Sergey.
Daniel says
I can have a stab at that for you Sergey, though without going back to look at the original or cheating to see how the professional transalator did it, based just on my memory of what Giuglielmo was on about:
“Non conta la fede che un movimento propone, conta la speranza che offre”
“It’s not the nature of the faith that a movement proposes that’s important, but the hope that it holds out.”
A rare instance of an English version that’s much longer than the Italian original. I’m sure someone else will be able to do better.
Partricia says
Eavesdropping on Rob Lee conversation with Daniel: Yay, you!
I put Il Nome aside 2/3 of the way through. I may continue when I feel like it!
At this point, I like to pick it up and read some pages–maybe 10-12 which look interesting, then put it down.
Like you, I stopped once in a while to read historical details. Naturally, that was not reading “the book”, but it did (and still does) keep me interested in “poking around in it”.
Not scholarly, but lights up many a dull moment!
Le avventure di Pinocchio was easier to keep reading while stopping less frequently to find out what the hell…wrapping a specific type of rag on the hooves of the dozen ciuchini to muffle the sound, and seeing il burattino riding the head critter?? …. now, that was a great image I would not have enjoyed without some definition. I am also enjoying picking up and reading passages from Le avventure, just for the images.
I realize I don’t like plowing through any book, but having completed reading it (or almost, in the case of Il nome…) cherry-picking parts of the text does help develop my language skills. Sometimes I read parts aloud for the sound of it.
I don’t say this just to yank Daniel’s chain; I appreciate all the effort that goes into this book club venture. Thanks.
Wendy Hartnell says
I’m still reading too Robert. I’m up to 80% so woll finish now. I’m really pleased to have tackled a difficult book in Italian. I want to research the history a bit but will wait until I’ve finished.
Elena Ferrante’s the next on my list.
Helen says
Like you Rob, I’m still battling on with Il Nome Della Rosa and I’m determined to finish it! I take a lot of encouragement from Daniel’s emails and just carry on reading no matter how much I understand ( or not as the case may be ). However I feel really pleased with myself when I do come to parts that I suddenly realise I’m reading and understanding ( some of them quite easily – well a few ). Although I’m not really tempted to use a dictionary I can’t help googling names etc to find out more background to the time of the story. I too googled Dolcino last night and was horrified to find out that what was written truly happened.
Daniel don’t give up! You must be encouraging so many others to read as you recommend, and anyway I always enjoy the rants. 😂
Anne says
Ciao tutti!
I am also plugging along in Il Nome della Rossa! I am in the fifth day, finally, and am only looking up words I find intriguing. Although frustrating at times, reading this book has been a great experience and it pushed me out of my comfort zone since it is a full level and more above my ability. I find I am understanding much more than I thought I would and I hope to be finished in the next several days.
Rob Lee says
What a surprise! I genuinely thought I was on my own with only Daniel riding shotgun. Now there’s a posse! Thanks for the encouragement Daniel and everyone.
Sergey, I’m sure you’ve read Daniels translation so I’m not going to try to beat it. Think of Donald Trump and his election strategies, and the quote from Il Nome means “Offer the people hope and they will follow you”. My personal opinion on the Donald remains a secret,
Sergey says
Hi Rob, hi Daniel!
I sincerely thank you both for our conversation.
Ma da questo punto suggerisco tornare all’Italiano, se non vi dispiace.
Dopotutto, noi siamo i membri di un ITALIAN club, perché non ci parliamo questa lingua bellissima?
Sì, penso di aver capito la frase “Non conta la fede che un movimento propone,
conta la speranza che offre” più o meno ugualmente come voi. Cerco di formularla con le mie parole.
Allora, non importa la fede che propone un movimento, o una istituzione (come, ad esempio, la chiesa o un partito politico, etc.), o una persona (perché non Donald Trump?). Importa la speranza che offrono i suddetti attori ai loro sostenitori o all’altre persone per attirarle alla sua parte.
Ma, se ho capito giusto, la idea mi sembra… hmmm… molto discutibile.
Sappiamo come la Chiesa Christiana medievale proponeva la fede in Cristo e offriva la speranza per la salvezza dell’anima e per entrare nel Regno dei Cieli.
Sappiamo anche come quella Chiesa, con le mani dell’Inquisizione, affrontava le persone che non erano d’accordo, gli eretici.
Per inciso, frate Guglielmo era un inquisitore una volta, no vi ricordete?
Sappiamo come Adolf Hitler ha dato ai tedeschi la speranza per la vita molto più bella di quella che aveva questo popolo dopo la prima guerra mondiale. Questa speranza si basava sull’idea del nazismo, sulla credenza nella superiorità dei rappresentanti della razza ariana sugli altri popoli…
C’erano molti altri episodi nella storia, quando il seguire le idee a prima vista meravigliose, portava enormi calamità e crimini sanguinosi.
Beh, anche nel nostro tempo possiamo vedere lo stesso. Donald Trump era lontano dal primo e non l’ultimo, dicendo “Offer the people hope and they will follow you”.
Allora, oserei obiettare a frate Guglielmo.
Al mio avviso, non è sufficiente sapere l’idea, la fede che qualcuno ropone. Neanche è sufficiente avere la speranza offerta dai predicatori di questa fede. È molto importante, anche necessario di accertare il più attentamente, quali azioni sono previste per raggiungere gli ideali della fede, per realizzare la speranza.
Che ne pensate?
Sergey.
Chris Jolley says
Dear Daniel, hai ragione! I have been learning Italian for 4 years and 2 years ago I swapped my English book for an Italian version of a John Grisham novel when staying in Sorrento. With my trusty dictionary by my side, only 8 pages read in 2 years!
Today after reading your advice and of your frustration that people know better, I shut my dictionary and did as you say………very scary, but 15 pages read and oh how enjoyable. Thank you.
I do always listen to EasyItalianNews and I watch quite a few Italian TV programmes on RaiPlayer (L’Eredita is a preferito) which has helped enormously with my listening skills.
Thanks again for your advice and great emails, it really does help and entertain.
Chris
Daniel says
With my trusty dictionary by my side, only 8 pages read in 2 years!
I think that’s typical, Chris. I was bought a trilogy of Italian crime for my birthday (1500 pages in total) years back, and I still haven’t got through the first volume!
What’s working for me now, with Pirandello, is having a daily target to read (mine is 20 pages, so to finish the book in 10 days). Even when I don’t feel like it, it’s manageable. And after a few days, the total of pages already read (and commensurate understanding of and involvement in the story) is really motivating!
Sergey says
Rispettati signore e signori!
Si improvvisamente scopre che, grazie a Rob Lee e Daniel, la nostra discussione sul romanzo Il nome della rosa si è spontanamente ricominciata.
Sono molto lieto da questo fatto. Sono felice anche sapere che ci sono persone che continuano (come io) leggere il romanzo originale.
Se è così, vi propongo, cari lettori diligenti, una piccola domanda.
Perché umberto Eco ha dato alla sua opera il titolo “Il nome della rosa”?
Sì, mi ricordo che Daniel ha scritto un paio parole su di questo nella lettera che precedeva la nostra conoscenza con il romanzo.
Ma, in primo luogo, non sono stato soddisfatto da quella spiegazione breve, e in secondo luogo, mi piacerebbe sapere la vostra opinione.
Vi prego una sola cosa: se volete rispondermi, scrivete la vostra risposta in Italiano, per favore!
Secondo me, quando impari una lingua straniera, sia molto utile cercare di esprimere i tuoi pensieri nella lingua imparata.
Ciao e buona lettura!
Sergey.
Rob Lee says
Ciao Sergey,
Penso che Guglielmo / Eco abbia ragione riguardo alla fede e alla speranza. Nel Regno Unito nessuno legge i manifesti politici. Il voto dipende alla speranza che il politico offre nei discorsi in TV o sui giornali. Dobbiamo leggere i manifesti ma non c’è abbastanza tempo nelle nostre vite moltissimo occupate. Otteniamo i politici che meritiamo!
Rob.
Wendy Hartnell says
Oh my goodness, I’ve finished! Posting here as a few people are still contributing. It took me over rwo months but I’m so pleased I persevered. Thank you Daniel for setting this up and for all you’re encouragement.
I’m now going to read something else but will try another book club item at some stage.
Daniel says
Brava Wendy!!
Janet says
One or two comments on this whole enterprise, which I have enjoyed enormously. I have been reading real books in Italian for some time now and have an advantage with this one in that much of the Church history and theological debates are familiar to me, at least in outline. I have proceeded with this rather slowly and am only just beginning the sixth day. One reason is due to the hazards of reading on my iPad. I was getting more and more puzzled to references to the labyrinth until I realised that I had somehow skipped quite a chunk of text. But I will finish in the next few days and don’t regret taking so long. Another is that I can only assume that most people were going to skip large chunks of text as, even though I am usually a fast reader, I think I would be hard-pressed to read I Nome della Rosa in the allotted time in English, much less Italian. But no matter.
I agree with you, Daniel, about not constantly looking up words, although I have done so on occasions when it was clear that I was missing the point and hence totally confused about what was going on. (The advantage of reading digitally is that one can check a word by simply clicking on it rather than having to use a dictionary.) One word I did look up was ‘saio’ which is given in the vocabulary as ‘sackcloth’. This is misleading because, in monastic life, it is the term used for the religious dress or ‘habit’. I guess this is because habits were often made of sackcloth. This doesn’t matter much but people might have wondered why there was sackcloth near the bath in which Berengario was discovered, or why Guglielmo reached into his sackcloth to find his spectacles.
But thank you for this. It has been fun and I doubt if I would have tackled it without encouragement from you.
Daniel says
Good to hear that you’ve enjoyed the challenge, Janet.
About ‘saio’, which I didn’t look up, along with every other of the thousands of words I didn’t know, so – if I remember this correctly – there’s a dead monk in a bath, naked. Next to the bath is is ‘something’. Our monk/detective reaches into it and pulls out a clue.
I didn’t feel the urge to be sure that ‘something’ meant ‘habit’ or clothing or whatever because it seemed fairly obvious that that was what it would be, and if not, it wasn’t going to hold me up anyway. You wanted to know. Fair enough. But that probably explains why I finished the 503 pages in a couple of weeks, in fact, faster than I expected (and I didn’t skip any parts at all.) It’s about ‘tolerance for ambiguity’ – needing or wanting to know, slows you down a lot! Reading on, assuming that, most of the time, the unknown item is probably not important (if it is, it’ll be mentioned again in all likelihood) is much more efficient.
Modern language exams test reading ‘skills’, one of which is exactly this: the ability to process a mass of text in a short time without being distracted (and I appreciate that this is not an exam, so by all means get distracted if you wish) by elements that are not relevant or critical to the task. ‘Understanding’ can mean different things and so be evaluated in many ways, you see.