Deb emailed

Buondì.

Deb emailed.

I got permission to share her missive here, and have added my replies (IN CAPS), hoping that it might be helpful more generally to club members, some of whom, no doubt, have similar issues.

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I’m … wondering if you might talk about, in a future message, on the importance of immersion, practice, and doing the hard work if you really want something out of it. No magic bullet. I ask because of my own stumbling blocks from not making the time to “study” seriously. Yes, I have a tutor who I meet with weekly. We have gone through grammar, vocabulary, etc. and now speak primarily in Italian (THAT’S GREAT!!), but at a basic level. My tutor helps me to learn how I learn best, but that last part is up to me and after 3 years of lessons/meetings I still rely on translating all of my written missives before sending them to make sure they’re correct (I THINK THAT’S NORMAL – WRITING IS NOT SPEECH, YOU GET THE OPTION TO TRY TO PERFECT YOUR TEXT USING WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY. BUT WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO BE ‘CORRECT’?) instead of taking-making the time to use what I’ve learned to move forward with.

Speaking/listening is still a challenge. (IT WOULD BE A SUPRISE IF THAT WERE NOT THE CASE AFTER JUST TWO/THREE YEARS OF PART-TIME LEARNING, DON’T YOU THINK?) Sure, I’ve improved (GREAT!!), but after all of this time I’m not where I want or need to be (WHICH IS WHERE, EXACTLY?. Not her fault! Only I can take what she’s given me and turn it into applied knowledge. For instance, I’ve recently been recognized as an Italian citizen. Woo hoo! (EXCUSE ME IF I’M SLOW WITH THE CONGRATULATIONS…) And want so badly to be that Italian citizen! Passport in hand after a botched attempt at speaking in Italian with the passport clerk at my consulate here in NYC. They were kind yet perplexed (STUPID PEOPLE…). I was embarrassed. (BUT EMBARASSMENT IS PART OF THE DEAL WITH FOREIGN LANGUAGES, DIDN’T YOU KNOW?)

Next I am applying for SPID (READERS CAN LOOK THAT UP…). I’ve gotten through all of the sign up procedure, some of it read on my own, some just outright copied and pasted into google translate (TERRIBLE IDEA) when the privacy and service agreement reading got heavy. (WHY BOTHER? NO ONE READS THE SMALL PRINT. PERHAPS YOUR EXPECATIONS OF BEING ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THIS DENSE LEGAL ITALIAN ARE TOO HIGH?) Next is, since I’m in NYC, a webcam interview for official identity recognition. Last week I logged onto my Skype interview with Salve in Roma and he quickly began reading from his script. I was immediately lost. (SO? NOT UNDERSTANDING EVERYTHING YOU HEAR IS TOTALLY TYPICAL. “SMILE AND NOD”, I ALWAYS SAY.) I asked possiamo parlare in Inglese? He replied No. (FAIR ENOUGH REALLY…) Farò del mio meglio I replied. As we proceeded it was clear I was in WAY over my head and had to stop the interview. (SOUNDS LIKE A TERRIBLE DECISION. YOU NEED TO GET PAST THESE EMOTIONS IF YOU’RE GOING TO BE ITALIAN. PEOPLE SPEAK FAST, THINGS ARE COMPLICATED, YOU’RE GOING TO FEEL BAD SOMETIMES. HAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME. I HAVE A RANGE OF EXCUSES: I’M A LITTLE DEAF, I’VE HAD TWO STROKES, I WAS UP ALL NIGHT BECAUSE OF BUG. AND YET STILL THEY’RE MEAN TO ME! DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE, REALLY.) Salve was kind enough to send me the questions through the chat so that I could translate them and then get back onto the Skype video interview. Thought I was good to go, but no.
We stopped and he rescheduled the interview to another time which I’ve already canceled. (WHY? A SPID IDENTITY INTERVIEW IS A ROUTINE FIVE MINUTE THING. JUST AGREE TO EVERYTHING. NOD AND SMILE. AND IT’S DONE. YOU’RE NOT GETTING MARRIED OR SELLING YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL TO SATAN – THOUGH I USED THE SAME ‘NOD AND SMILE’ APPROACH AT MY OWN WEDDING… MORE OR LESS THE ONLY PART I UNDERSTOOD WAS ‘DO YOU UNDERSTAND ITALIAN?’ I LIED.)

Of course I will make a new appointment, but my point here is that my incapability to not only use what I’ve learned but invest in myself to learn more, and more quickly, not just run through the lessons, the vocab, has brought me to failure where there doesn’t need to be. (I DON’T AGREE, SEE BELOW FOR MY SUMMARY. ALSO, FAILURE IS NORMAL AND OMNIPRESENT. THAT’S REALLY THE WHOLE POINT: LANGUAGES ARE INFINITELY COMPLICATED. YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE. NEVER. YOU PROBABLY DON’T IN YOUR MOTHER TONGUE EITHER, BUT YOU’RE CHILLED ABOUT IT.)

I’m frustrated, I’ve spent money, I’ve spent some time, but I’ve not committed to really learning and speaking Italian. (SOUNDS UNTRUE, YOU APPEAR TO HAVE MADE REASONABLE PROGRESS IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES OVER AN EXTENDED TIME PERIOD – YOU’RE DOING WAY BETTER THAN MOST, I’M SURE) Your easyitaliannews emails, your ebooks, tutor services, and most likely your in-person instruction in Italy help immerse your clients, giving them all the tools they need. But it’s ultimately up to them/us/me to make that commitment. Without that there’s no point.(WELL YES AND NO – IF WE RELIED ON PEOPLE BEING COMMITTED AND WORKING HARD, WE’D HAVE BEEN OUT OF BUSINESS DECADES AGO. THE TRICK IS TO HELP LEARNERS GAIN CONFIDENCE, TO CREATE TRUST, TO KEEP THINGS INTERESTING.)

I’ve found in social media language and Italy groups I belong to that many members are more than happy to blame anyone else for their lack of language skills, and seem to believe that Duolingo is really going to be relevant (LET’S SAY THE RELEVANCE IS LIMITED IN THE MEDIUM/LONG TERM), or that using google translate when conversing with someone in Italy (TOTALLY STUPID) is better than learning the language. Sure, to each their own, but when it comes to actually needing to speak in Italian the only way is through practice, immersion, and commitment. (MAYBE THOSE GROUPS AREN’T HELPFUL? WHY HANG WITH FRUSTRATED/MISGUIDED LEARNERS? WHY NOT, INSTEAD JOIN SOME GROUPS FOR ITALIANS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN MOVING TO YOUR COUNTRY AND NEED HELP WITH THE COMPLICATIONS THAT YOU UNDERSTAND WELL AND THEY DON’T? LIKELY THEY’LL BE DELIGHTED, AND ALSO YOU’D BE READING, WRITING AND SO ON IN ITALIAN, AND MAYBE MAKING FRIENDS. IT MIGHT BE A GREAT THING FOR YOUR CONFIDENCE, TOO, TO SEE THAT ITALIANS HAVE PROBLEMS WITH ENGLISH, JUST LIKE YOU HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT YOUR ITALIAN.)

SUMMARY COMMENT
So Deb, thanks for letting me use your email and respond to it here.

The thing that I spotted immediately in your text is that you don’t mention – and perhaps, therefore, don’t fully understand – the useful idea of ‘level’, that is to say what it is or isn’t reasonable to be able to DO in each of the CEFR bands (there are six), and how long that might you take to achieve.

I’ve written about this lots on the club website, but let’s hypothesise that you’re somewhere in the A2 band, perhaps B1 in some skills such as writing, and weaker, so A1, in others, like listening to and interacting with native speakers.

That’s fine after a couple of years of part-time ‘study’, but the ‘A’ bands in the CEFR framework describe learners who are ‘not yet autonomous’. To deal better with the challenges you mention, I’d expect you to be in one or the other of the ‘B’ bands, which describe learners who are functionally autonomous, to a greater or lesser degree.

Using the CEFR checklist to monitor your progress might help you have a more realistic expectation of what you should/shouldn’t be able to do at the point you’ve reached. And, as a consequence, prioritise the important things and skip the stuff that you’re unlikely to be able to manage any time soon.

For instance, I’ve been learning Italian for a quarter of a century, and am sure I could navigate whatever privacy policies, disclaimers, etc. that Italian lawyers might throw at me, expecting me to ignore them. But mostly, I wouldn’t bother. While my wife (Italian native-speaker, college graduate, really smart cookie) wouldn’t either. She’d quit with a ‘Non capisco niente’ within a sentence or two.

Conclusion: use the CEFR checklist to get a real understanding of what you can (and can’t yet) do. Plan your learning accordingly, based on your priorities. Don’t sweat the small stuff, but absolutely do commit to not quitting interactions with native speakers, bureaucrats, tax police, parking inspectors, and so on. Very likely they don’t speak your language, so why should you feel bad that you don’t (yet) speak theirs perfectly? And now you’re a citizen, you have a vote!!

One final thing – studying is not the same as learning. I NEVER study, but learn plenty. By listening to the radio, for instance. You don’t have to learn a language ‘first’, then go out and use it. In fact, that’s inadvisable, given that listening ability, pronunciation, social skills etc. all develop gradually as you interact in a language.

Get using the language you’re learning, and you’ll be improving anyway, whether or not you study.

Hope that helps!

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Deb emailed