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Buondì.
When students ask teachers (or other learners) for advice, sometimes assumptions are all there are to go on. For instance when Chris emailed on Saturday:
“My wife and I are traveling to Italy in Late Sep 2024.
Do you offer a good method/process for us to learn Italian together and speak it around the house??”
Premise – if Chris was planing to pay me to organise his learning for him, and that would cost a lot, I’d insist on a full ‘needs analysis’, level test, and so on and so forth, before agreeing to take the job.
And if I thought that what he wanted wasn’t possible in the time available, I would totally tell him, before agreeing to do the work.
I lost lots of clients that way, and delivering bad news isn’t fun, but at least I slept better, knowing that I wasn’t ripping people off.
However, in this case, given that Chris was writing to the club email address, my assumption was that he wanted some free advice, which I’m usually happy to give. In return for a little appreciation of my time and effort.
But… oh, um… Chris appears to have not much more than four months available, and seems to want to prioritise speaking, at home, with his wife. Not enough time, a challenging goal, and inflexible requirements.
So how to reply? It was, after all, Saturday, and we were at the coast, with Bug, for a family birthday celebration.
“We offer lots of things, Chris, but the fact that you are asking doesn’t bode well. Why not start by reading this article, and reflecting on it? https://onlineitalianclub.com/how-to-learn-italian-or-any-language/“
i.e. Go find out a little about language learning, then maybe redefine your question?
Later in the day, or possibly it was Sunday morning, this arrived:
“Daniel – thanks for getting back to me. I did read your article.
My specific question was whether there was a good method/process for a couple to learn together. We can of course improvise our own, but thought maybe someone has considered that already. Did I miss this in your article??
Thanks,
Chris”
OK, so that’s totally clear. You want to learn to speak Italian, in a very short arc of time, at home with your wife, and don’t mention paying a professional to design a course for you, or a budget – either of time or of money.
As I wrote above, if Chris was planing to pay me to organise his learning for him – and that would cost a lot – I’d insist on a full needs analysis, level test, and so on and so forth, before agreeing to take the job. And if I thought what he wanted wasn’t possible in the time available, I would totally tell him before agreeing to do the work.
Whereas if he just wanted some tips, sunny weekend at the coast nothwithstanding, I’d just take a few more minutes and try to point him in the right direction. As you do…
“Your respective objectives? Learning experience? Preferred learning styles? Levels? Time available? etc. Without this information, which only you have, your question is pointless, though if you ask a school. they’ll sell you something without bothering you to have to think about those things. Whether what they sell you will will work for you and your wife is not their problem.
Short answer, though, is that beginners studying together may save money but are unlikely to benefit equally, unless they are very experienced learners and able to carefully manage the process. That’s why it’s not in the article. Neither is are lots of other ‘methods’.”
Language learning materials and approaches are primarily designed to be delivered in classrooms to groups of people (state schools, private courses), or have the function of separating fools from their money. Which is the usual job of the word ‘method’, to sound convincing in marketing materials.
Learners can figure out how to learn a language for themselves, as I describe in https://onlineitalianclub.com/how-to-learn-italian-or-any-language/, but that takes a long time, and requires lots of effort.
Or they can pay a professional to tell them what to do. But as I described to Chris, a lot of organisations and private teachers will take students’ money KNOWING IN ADVANCE THAT THE STUDENT WILL FAIL.
As far as I know, there are no miracles in language learning, and if you walk up to the school’s reception desk and ask for one, you risk being fleeced by the unscrupulous.
But who wants to hear that? Certainly not Chris, who replied:
“Curious why you seem like such an asshole?
Thanks,
Chris”
Dunno, Chris. Bitter, lived experience, probably. Thirty years of watching students paying a lot in return for less than they’d hoped for. Or maybe I was born that way. But Bug likes me, anyway.
“I gave you good advice, for free, twice, on a weekend, which you appear not to value.
This would make a good topic for Wednesday’s article. Do I have your permission to publish this email exchange, and open it up for comments from learners around the world? I’m sure it would be educational for anyone else with your question.
Best wishes”
At least I can kill two birds with one stone – an article idea for Wednesday, and maybe some club member will know of a ‘learn to speak Italian in four months, at home with your wife, for free’ method that has somehow escaped me.
In which case, please leave a comment on this article. There are instructions below.
Permission was duly granted:
“You gave condescending, demeaning responses that included incorrect assumptions.
Go ahead, share the whole exchange, unedited.”
Well, I edited out the guy’s email address, and phone number, which for some reason was at the bottom of his emails. And tidied the line breaks so they’ll look OK on a screen. But the texts, mine and his, are exactly as exchanged. No prizes for spotting my two typos, which I’ve left in, as requested.
So now, over to you! Suggestions for Chris?
Please don’t email me directly (I’m mooting never responding to an email ever again…) but LEAVE A COMMENT ON THIS ARTICLE. To do that:
1.) Click through to the article on the club’s website.
2.) Scroll down to the bottom.
3.) Fill in the comments form. Your email address is required, but won’t be published or used for marketing purposes. Besides, if you’re reading this article IN an email, we already have it, right?
All genuine comments will be published, though that might take minutes, hours, or overnight, as I might be ferrying Bug to/from the petting zoo, preparing his feeds, or even asleep. CET time zone. Be patient.
And of course, by clicking through to the article on the club’s website, and scrolling down to the bottom, you can also read what other club members have to say (if anything) and direct replies specifically to them if you wish. A conversation might happen, which would make a nice change.
Così. Chris and I thank you in advance for your input.
Alla prossima settimana!
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P.S.
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Didn’t see it? You should subscribe. That’s also FREE.
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Reading and listening to EasyItalianNews.com three times a week is an excellent way to speed up your progress with Italian! Over sixteen thousand learners of Italian already do, so why not you?
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LESLEY TEITELBAUM says
Daniel I appreciate your thoughtful responses to me over the years and your thoughtful newsletter.
I appreciate you sharing this exchange.
I might suggest to the writer to perhaps look on you tube for travel italian – while I am not sure it’s realistic to be conversational in the house or anywhere else ( unless you are a professional foreign service agent with several other languages in your repertoire) you can practice italian phrases helpful for travel in Italy – such as where is the bathroom and can we please have the check excuse me and many many more !
Watching you tube channels there are now several even many can help introduce you to the language and you can take notes and practice with your wife. If you ever wanted to build your italian language skills over time I highly recommend a structured class by you or online or if you really wanted to have a deep immersive experience perhaps consider travel ing to Italy specifically to learn the language and take a class there – there are many – even bologna where Daniel and his wife have a school !!! Many options for taking your travel phrases further in the future – the possibilities are limitless. Wishing you all all the best – and safe travels.
Heather Sinclair says
A totally unrealistic question and expectations from Chris.
Lynne F says
Hi Daniel, My plan to get back to my Italian after the short break is going well so far, Day 3 and I listened to EIN ,podcasts and Italian Radio in the car 🙂
Regarding Chris, Without knowing further information I would say it is impossible to provide him with a definitive answer. Presuming that he and his wife speak no Italian I would suggest…
1) Don’t set yourselves up to fail you are not going to be fluently speaking /understanding Italian in 4 months no matter what some sites promise.
2) Focus on what you could achieve e.g. greeting people, travelling on buses, trains and taxis, and asking directions, in a restaurant/shop, , things that you are interested in. There is so much online to help with this. Italians are usually very appreciative if you try a few words.
3) Listen to as much Italian as you can, every day, not lists of words but real conversations., podcasts, Easy Italian News etc This will tune your ears into Italian and some words and phrases will become familiar..
If they seriously want to learn Italian this is just a starting point. From it, they can decide where to go next, courses in their home country, courses in Italy, on line courses, Listening to the radio, podcasts etc Conversation with Italians, They can find some of these on your sites and elsewhere.
Steve says
I’m making assumptions here, which I know infuriates Chris, but occasionally one has to. From the demanding and entitled tone of his email, I’d suggest that perhaps Chris would be better advised to spend the time prior to his visit practicing pointing at objects, raising his voice increasingly as he becomes more frustrated and by placing unnecessary and exaggerated vowels at the end of occasional words and phrases.
SusanK says
This reply was spot on. I had a good laugh.
Caroline says
This is a brilliant response. You’ve put my reaction to Chris into words!
Rosalind says
Hello Daniel,
Reading the emails from “Chris” made my blood boil. HOW DARE HE speak to you in that way!
I am so very grateful for your generosity and sometimes feel a bit guilty for using all the free material you share so kindly. How many people around the world are being helped by your site in their quest to learn Italian?
I lived in Italy all my adult life and, for the latter part, taught English as a foreign language. Since retiring and moving back to the UK, I’m teaching Italian to a handful of people who come to my home. We have such fun and they are progressing incredibly well.
I use many resources found online but nothing so helpful as your Online Italian Club. In fact, I live in fear of some tw*t like Chris turning up and making you want to give the whole thing up.
Please carry on exactly as you are.
Yours, with respect and gratitude, Rosalind
Alison Ledgerwood says
The sheer ignorance and rudeness of people never ceases to amaze me. I worry about your blood pressure Daniel. I felt mine soaring as I read this. Your provide an incredible amount of practical advice in your blogs, always presented with humour, not to mention all the the information on your site – and all for free. Why is it that people can’t appreciate this?
I hope it helps to know that some of us do – so thank you.
Nina Blackwell says
Poor Chris. All I can say is I have spent years trying to learn Italian. I started with the traditional method (grammar books and classes). Then I subscribed to an audio podcast with pdf transcriptions. I bought cassette tapes back in the day, then CDs and listened them continuously in my car. More recently, I watched hours and hours of YouTube videos and podcasts (Lucrezia Oddone, Stefano, Italiano Automatico, Podcast Italiano) and eventually subscribed to two online courses by Italy Made Easy. I currently am subscribed to Italiano Per La Vita, an online platform by founder Alberto Arrighini of Italiano Automatico on YouTube. The beginning courses I can recommend to Chris and his wife are on YouTube. Italy Made Easy has 20 free episodes for learners and Passione Italiana (Marta) also has a beginners playlist. These are all excellent resources and not in any way condescending, assuming they are just starting out. If they are not, all of these online teachers offer levels – A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2 – and can be sorted accordingly. For the record, I alternate listening every day to either EasyItalianNews or History Page (finally I’m in the Rinascimento) of this splendid website. Good luck, Chris!
Chris Jolley says
In defence of Chrises, not all are quite so rude. There is a lot of very good advice for Chris given by other members in previous comments . My learning started 7 years ago in a class at a local library. A good way to start, but there was always much concentration on grammar! A goos base, but my real improvements came when I studied “learning how to learn” which I began to do on the great advice in Daniels blogs/website, which have helped me greatly AND made me laugh! I’ve made good use of all the facilities on OnlineItalianClub over the years, inc EasyItalianNews, which from understanding virtually nothing, but persevering on Daniels advice, I now read out loud to myself 3 times a week and can understand most of it! But there’s no quick fix for us mere mortals, hours of listening/reading and speaking…even if it’s only to yourself, although luckily my wife does happen to be pretty good in Italian. I was 64 when I started, and realise now that it’s never too late!
Christine Stonier says
To be honest you did come over as a bit of an asshole. Chris did not say that he wanted to have learned the language by the time that he visited Italy with his wife, he wanted a steer as to the best way of learning together. He may have plans to visit many times in the future – who knows? He also did not say that he was not prepared to pay once he had had that steer.
It’s always dangerous to make assumptions from an email and perhaps a couple more questions would have helped.
Daniel says
Not my job to ask questions of random people who email me, Christine, and the initial email certainly reads as if Chris wanted to learn the language BEFORE visiting Italy in four months time:
“Hi – My wife and I are traveling to Italy in Late Sep 2024.
Do you offer a good method/process for us to learn Italian together and speak it around the house??”
(Short answer: no.)
What I do offer, for free, is advice. A professional’s perspective. And to an extent, my free time. Asking nothing in return. At no point, for instance, did I suggest – as would have been typical for the industry – that the solution would have been to purchase some lessons from our sister company, to do together with the wife, over the four months before the trip. And certainly not promise that that would be effective.
It IS dangerous to make assumptions from an email, which is why I described in the article that – were I still in the business of teaching and managing teachers – I would have done considerable further research into the students’ needs etc. But people who write asking for advice bear the responsibility to be clear regarding their needs. I flagged up that only Chris had the information necessary to suggest a solution, if there was one (his level, preferred learning style, etc.)
The safe solution for not upsetting anyone ever is not to answer emails or phone calls (or write blog comments…) Now you know why it’s almost impossible to contact the people behind the businesses you have to interact with every day. The real decision-makers have more sense than me, so hide behind call centers, AI, and so on.
THANKS, by the way, TO EVERYONE WHO HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THIS ‘CONVERSATION’.
Steph says
Hi Daniel,
Having been a grateful member for many years I too worry about your blood pressure.
Maybe the short answer ‘NO’ would have been best. And then disengage.
Stay well!
Steph
Daniel says
Blood pressure’s fine, Steph, but thanks. And yes, I think ‘no’ would have saved a lot of hassle, you’re right.
Diane Feast says
Hi Daniel – I am so grateful for the amazing amount of material you offer and the suggestions and ideas in your regular emails. Chris’s comments were rude and unjustified – ignore him and those like him.
Paul says
Daniel, the guy’s a wanker in the Australian sense x
Daphne says
As a retired teacher, you have my sympathy Daniel. Our intermediate Italian group uses articles from Easy Italian News and selected grammar exercises.. We meet weekly over Zoom and organise our own learning. We find that some folk are unrealistic about the time and effort required to learn a foreign language. We appreciate the resources you provide.
Anne says
Daniel–
Nice to see all the support for you in these comments, but you really are a curmudgeon! As I read your email exchange with Chris (twice), he seemed to just want a little guidance on starting to learn Italian with his wife and didn’t expect to be proficient by the time they went to Italy. I agree with the commenter who said you should have told him “no,” but barring that, I don’t think you should have given him a lecture: It was pompous. Also, taking him to task (twice) for not being grateful enough that you replied on the weekend seemed snippy. Just because he emailed (or did he text, you use both words?) on the weekend, doesn’t mean you had to reply then..
Actually, I was glad you are not a native Italian. Your curtness could have ruined the couple’s impression of Italy before they even go there.
Maybe you just should have told them to use Duolingo together. I know how much you like it.
Niall Finn says
Hi Daniel,
I don’t think it is an assumption if you read Chris’s original approach as meaning he and his wife wanted to learn (more?) Italian before going to Italy – otherwise why mention the travel? You didn’t assume they had no previous Italian but I have the feeling you have experienced so many people approach learning the language with unrealistic expectations that your first instinct was, totally understandably, to try to establish the existing level of skills. This clashed with Chris’s focus on one specific learning setting – their house. In a sense, you were both looking in different directions.
I have no sympathy or understanding whatsoever, on the other hand, for Chris’s rudeness. Nothing in what you wrote was either demeaning or condescending. To call someone who has, gratis, sacrificed part of his weekend to advise you an “asshole” is the act of a bore.
As a former professional EU translator, and someone who has learned languages for the past 50 years, I admire all you, Daniel, have offered language learners through your website and am grateful for your dedication.
If you also read this Chris, may I make a suggestion directly responding to your home-setting query? Would it help for you and your wife to decide which are the fields you want to concentrate on before travelling and then allocate each a specific physical zone in your home? For example, if a priority is dealing with food and restaurants, use Italian as much as possible in the kitchen or dining room. Label furniture, fruit, vegetables, etc. in Italian and put questions and answers on place-mats. There are many online resources for the short dialogues you will need. Your living room might similarly be the focus for sight-seeing, the bathroom for hotel and/or asking for medicines at a pharmacy.
Gia Granucci says
Hello Daniel,
Before I begin with my suggestions for Chris and his wife, I want to thank you with the utmost gratitude for your site. I have been studying Italian (everyday) for 2 1/2 years and your site/information has been an integral part of my learning experience!!
Here are my excellent suggestions for Chris and his wife: Chris, you are so lucky to have a partner to begin the beautiful path of learning Italian. For the next 4 months this is what I suggest you do with your wife:
1) Purchase Pimsleur; download it on your phone. Both of you work on the lessons individually and then use the new vocabulary in your lessons for simple conversations. Pimsleur is all listen and repeat…and through that process you will learn grammar, vocabulary and conversational topics.
2) Daniel’s site has an extensive set of Dialogs. As a couple, listen to the dialogs relating to things you will do on your trip and then practice the dialogs together each playing a different role. 3) Utube: fine some u-tube lessons with simple conversations for traveling. practice the scripts together. Good luck!!!!
Debby Plummer says
I agree with all the positive responses above. You offer an enormous array of FREE material and never push for donations. You offer for the casual learner and the serious one. Hindsight is always 20-20 but I’m glad most everyone left KIND comments. You deserve thanks, not villification. Here’s another American who appreciates you!!
David Gordon-Watkins says
Perhaps it is an encouragement to some folk that there are go-getters out there wanting to get things done in a hurry, and by cutting corners where necessary, but why o why, does personal disappointment, when confronted with reality, have to be couched in such vulgar terms?
Your patience, dear Daniel, continues to win my heartfelt admiration!
Jay says
Daniel- your advice was as good as it gets for the query.
I also teach – music. Don’t think I could get them playing duets on any instrument………
S W S W S W
Some Will, Some Won’t, S What
Linda Antonik says
I consider myself somewhat of an expert at studying Italian since I have been at it for almost 2 decades, a great deal of it through Madrelingua, both in classes and private lessons. I currently do Zoom through your online program.
I have found that organized classes were great to begin with, but in my humble opinion, at some indefinable point, classes seem to stall or retard language learning. If the goal – I know, blah blah- is to understand spoken Italian heard and used on the buses, trains, or grocery stores, one needs to get out of the classroom. And I’m not talking about understanding overheard conversations among native speakers, I’m talking about buying tickets, getting directions, asking if a seat is available and on and on. I never understood why the topics were the Renaissance, Middle Ages, Art History and god help us, Pinocchio. These classes create a safe, but unhelpful environment. In my many, many weeks at ML the students I met just wanted to learn enough Italian to get around and to meaningfully talk with people. ( I know – whatever that means) I obviously respect your school and your teachers, but I kind of understand where this guy was headed. Although, yikes, what a way to approach it.
And last, why on earth do you aggravate yourself by attending to emails on the weekend when it clearly pisses you off? This guy could have waited until Monday.
Brenda Burton says
It’s unclear if Chris has any experience in learning a foreign language, but it’s probably a good guess he does not.
If he thinks he can learn Italian by practicing with his wife if she doesn’t know Italian either, I don’t think it will work in time for his trip.
It took me about three years to become moderately fluent in English by speaking with my mother who already spoke English and she wasn’t expecting me to contribute to her knowledge of the language. I think I may have even caused her English to deteriorate because she often said things to me like “are you my wittle itty bitty snuggy bunny”.
Meri Mancini says
When dealing with “the public”, one will always come up against the odd entitled, pompous muppet. You are more than generous with your free material and the majority appreciate your efforts. This particular bloke just needs a slight personality adjustment. Don’t let the a-holes of this world get you down
Penny Sutton says
Go get’em Daniel – what a twit/plonker/thoughtless/thick idiot! Some mothers do ‘ave them!!
Gia Granucci says
one more suggestion for Chris and his wife: Chris and wife: Watch this short video from teacher Stefano. Learn these simple phrases for your trip and simple rules of the informal and formal
https://youtu.be/ri4GHVcev8A?si=9uERCF3Giq_w2Ky6
Diane Harcourt says
Hi Daniel. I endorse most of the above and, like others, I very much appreciate what you do. I often recommend the online club to others in the evening class I have been attending for over 2 years on zoom.
About ten years ago I was in Chris’ situation. I bought a Berlitz course with pc disks and CDs that I listened to in the car going to and from work. By the time we went (May) starting Jan, I got us around on trains and taxis, dealt with the hotel, ordered in restaurants etc reasonably well. I tried limited conversation but got very frustrated because I had only learned bits of present tense so couldn’t say what we’d done yesterday or wanted to do next week! Never mind opinions etc…. We had a wonderful holiday and I’d love to go back. However, 1. I’m a retired languages teacher 2. Italian is my 4th foreign language- one of the others is Spanish, which helps if the main aim is communication 3. I don’t mind making a fool of myself, so I pile in and have a go, 4. My main learning style is ‘theorist’ so I’m happy learning from books. I certainly was nowhere near a competent reader, let alone speaking or writing – but I could enjoy the visit more with what I had.
After a gap I joined the evening class – made accessible by the pandemic which moved the class onto Zoom. We’re in year 3, the class has shrunk to 5 and Our Professoressa is now teaching us privately. I love it. Your site has helped enormously; the large and varied collection of ebooks on my iPad and Easy Italian News have been brilliant along with the recordings. I also enjoy your blogs (is that the right word?) ( I also enjoy a lot of materials on YouTube)
I thought Chris was extremely rude and I admired your persistence. Please don’t give up on what you do because of a few stupid people. You are providing a wonderful service
Diane x
Rachel says
People right! What can you do about it?
Don’t stop responding, for every experience like this you help lots of us learn.
For the guy enquiring others have posted good suggestions. I’d suggest get the radio on to Italian mostly chat or only Italian music channels asap in the background. It’s amazing how many phrases and words are recognisable once you tune in. Otherwise a phrase book as suggested elsewhere and maybe an A1 book / CD to firm up pronunciation and the basics to be polite. A few phrases can get you quite a long way I find.
Best of luck with it.
Ps thanks to Steve for his comment which just made me laugh 😆
Moira says
Just time for a quick comment as so many have already provided feedback and suggestions for Chris.
My thought is I had no knowledge of German, I needed to learn some basic stuff, quickly. A friend translator (German, French, Spanish) , teacher bought me “Fast German” by Elizabeth Smith plus CD which worked aided by Duolingo German. 765 words learned and how to use those words to explain stuff I didn’t know the vocabulary for….it was fun trying it out but would have been better with a pal, Now I discover she has a similar book in Italian, maybe also a CD or on youtube?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/313607.Teach_Yourself_Instant_Italian_Book_Only
Thank you Chris for the opportunity to think how I coped with learning quickly, basics for a language. No guarantees it will work for everyone or indeed in Italian but maybe worth a look? Boring Duolingo has sustained me with German at least to survival level .
However I must thank Daniel and the team at Madrelingua for steering me to reaching fluency in Italian . Without their enthusiasm, skills and knowledge I would still be on the Ok I can get by, stage, Now I can fully experience Italian conversations with native speakers. From faltering steps we can get there, in my case over time.
Enjoy the journey Chris and Daniel keep sending those encouraging e-mails.
Mary says
Your service is amazing and the tools you provide for free are fantastic. I am learning Italian in my local town and have both travelled to and worked in Italy. If I am to do a residential course at sometime in the future I would strongly consider your School because of the content available on your site.
Regarding Chris, I find that his last comment was unnecessary calling you such a degrading name. If he and his wife are particularly interested in learining Italian at whatever level there is a plethora of information on this very site and as others have mentioned also on uTube and other such sites.
It would appear to me that the gentleman. in question did not do any homework prior to contacting you and then expected some sort of short cut to the language and learning. I wish the man well.
Diane says
Daniel, you are quite right to be cautious about people’s wish to learn a language in a short space of time. Even if people have knowledge of language learning, it is still quite an ask to think that someone can accomplish enough to be able to speak, listen and understand a new language in four months. I ran a language group for U3A for a couple of years and it amazed me that people think that they can accomplish much in a new language without putting in sustained effort. Language learning can be a slog at times but the rewards are great, especially the first time you go into a shop and have a whole conversation in the target language or when you overhear a conversation and realise that you understand what people are talking about! Four months or so of possibly (but maybe unreaslitically) an hour or so a day speaking with someone who also doesn’t speak the language? Take a phrase book or rely on your phone to translate for you.
Pat says
I learnt the best in my twenties (more years ago than I like to remember), in Florence. Two weeks solid, 4 hours a day and then out in the city using (or trying) the language.
Over subsequent years, I’ve listened to podcasts, read newspapers, read books and had many many lessons. Can I use the subjunctive properly- no. Can I generally discuss likes, dislikes, past events, use direct pronouns, yes.
Do I need to immerse myself more, yes and frequently!
My thanks go to all the patient teachers. To all those who put content out there for the likes of me to keep trying. Oh and the emails that keep prompting (thanks Daniel)
Ultimately enjoy every minute.
Caroline says
When approaching language learning, I think many of us are deceived by the Babel Fish illusion (Douglas Adams, Restaurant at the End of the Universe) in that we hope there is some magic device that will grant us fluency with little effort. If only!
Daniel, your teaching, thinking and suggested
methods are spot on as is your constant refrain that language learning needs time, patience and commitment.
Keep up the good work!