As a young man I spent three years working in Turkey, where people were constantly reminding me of the famous Turkish saying about speaking a foreign language:
“Bir dil bir insan, iki dil iki insan.”
(One who speaks only one language is one person, but one who speaks two languages is two people.)
Source: http://www.omniglot.com/language/proverbs/language.htm
Turks say that if you speak only your mother-tongue, you have ‘just’ the one personality.
But learn a foreign language, such as English, and in effect you gain a personality, you become two people.
I once knew a girl from the east of Turkey who worked as a belly-dancer in a nightclub in the capital.
She was doing pretty well out of it, so much so that she could afford to hire me to give her private English lessons at her smart apartment in a nice area of the city.
The reason she wanted to learn English, she explained, was that when speaking Turkish she encountered prejudice because her accent betrayed her origins and lack of education.
She hoped that, by using English, she’d be able to escape those limits.
Certainly, the way you speak your own language can say a lot about you.
And obviously, a lot (or all) of that ‘meta’ information about class and accent will be lost or become irrelevant when you speak another tongue.
But putting aside prejudice based on cultural clues, is there some sort of linguistic or psychological basis for the belief that you are actually a “different person” when speaking a second language?
For an interesting overview of this issue, check out this article from The Economist. (It’s a little heavy, but interesting.)
So, TWO Daniels?
Not to worry. I’d say I’m the same, irritable me whether I’m speaking English or Italian.
For me, the Turkish saying is without foundation, at least when it comes to how I feel about myself.
I’d allow, though, that perhaps other people may perceive me differently according to which language I’m using at the time.
My kids, for example, are used to hearing me spout competently in English. It’s likely that when they hear me speaking Italian (with friends, over a bottle of wine), they get a different impression of their old dad.
Similarly, I often notice how my perception of my students (Italians, learning English) changes when they switch from English to Italian. Even the sound of their voices can seem different.
Strange…
Over to you
So, do you feel like a different person when you speak Italian?
And what about the idea mentioned in the article, that it’s the intrinsic nature of a language that causes you to behave differently when you are using it?
Click here to share your views (scroll to the bottom of the page to have your say).
P.S.
Talking of speaking a foreign language, I’ll be publishing details of next week’s free Italian conversation lessons tomorrow (Sunday). There’ll be three sessions with 10 places in each, as last week, but some changes to the days. So watch this space.
P.P.S.
Twitter user? Follow @onlineitaliancl (Please! So far we have an embarrassing 24 followers…)
John Thomson says
sarei due personalite, mi lasci pensare – no non penso di si
Ma se fossi insegnendo una giovane ragazza turca, chi era una danzatrice del ventre e eravamo solo nel suo apartamento esclusivo, possibilmente la mia risposto sarebbe si
John
Daniel says
Non è che sei troppo vecchio per i pensieri del genere, John. IO sono troppo vecchio…
Frances Kenny says
Hi Daniel.
I don’t feel as if I have two personalities but one who has difficulties trying to be herself in another language. Namely Italian!! I have been learning Italian for 5 years( I know I should be saying this in Italian) I just love it but cannot express myself the way I would like. I feel the essence of my personality gets lost in translation. I love a good laugh but feel I don’t have the words to express this side of me. Thank you for your wonderful emails. They are so funny. I wonder if you can be as funny in Italian. Frances – Ireland
Daniel says
Hi Frances, and thanks for contributing here for the first time!
The feeling of ‘not being able to express myself as I can in my own language’ is pretty universal. You just get used to it after a while. I’ve been in Italy since 1998, so I’ve had a long time to develop communication habits, including making jokes. But in day-to-day life, say when I’m managing staff or participating in meetings with peers, I still notice how much easier it is using my mother tongue. Dealing with English speakers, I feel ‘normal’, and certainly a lot more confident that nuances are understood. Working in Italian, with Italians, is OK but without that sense of certainty. For instance, when I make a joke in Italian, I just get strange looks, which is not so great in a meeting…
Obviously, in my job (running a language school) I meet a lot of people in your position. Almost all of them feel as you do.
Hope that helps!
John Thomson says
Hi everybody
Wow there have been some interesting and erudite comments to this thread, I have been very impressed. I am about to lower the tone
Any post I submit of a semi-technical nature will be in English whilst most will hopefully be in Italian
1 I think the webinars are a fantastic help with improving my conversation in Italian.
2 I think most people on your site are in level A1, A2 and maybe some nudging into B1
3 My biggest problem is, as you know, conversation. Conversation is spontaneous and this is how the webinars are conducted, the Skype lessons are more structured.
4 I think that the online Italian club is the only site which offers webinars, you are a trend setter, others may well catch up
5 How are we to refer to them “webinars” “anymeeting” “on line discussion groups” ” on line conversation groups”
6 Clearly more work needs to be done by us, the users and you the creator
7 Maybe an article along the likes of “a dummies guide to using online conversation groups” what do the various icons mean? when to ‘click’ them? what system requirements there are
why can I be heard and not seen? etc.
8 You have truly inspired me as has the response to the project
cordiali saluti
John Thomson
John Thomson says
Scusami Daniel
ho dimenticato qualcosa di importante, una domanda.
“come fermi tu una persona come me monopolizza il sistema ?
grazie
John
Daniel says
Why would we want to do that, John? People with enthusiasm and time are the foundations of communities…
Daniel says
Wish I had a partner with as much energy (and time) as you, John. I’d be more than happy to delegate the whole thing.
Unfortunately, staffing is THE main issue. While this site remains small (and the income per month is in three figures at best), there’s no realistic chance of paying someone. And Lucia, Paolo and I have to hustle at our day jobs to earn a living….
So, the approach for now is to chuck something up and see what happens. IF there’s a sufficient response, I might be able to find the time to invest in it. If not, it might die off. As did the forums, remember?
I agree, it would be a shame, but an idea is only worth investing in if there is going to be a certain level of demand, and that in turn depends on the effectiveness of the marketing, which also takes time, energy (and money).
The next step with these online conversation groups (forming vaguely in my head) will be introduce some form of small payment. Something ‘low cost’ so they can be accessible to all.
There’s the risk, though, that that will wipe out most of the interest. People are naturally suspicious about things which cost. But, if interest doesn’t disappear completely, I’ll then maybe find the time to follow up on your suggestions…
In the meantime though, I’m quite open to approaches from volunteers (or potential partners) with time, energy or money to spare. Who knows what we could do with this site given the right team?
John Thomson says
Mama mia
Da ultimo commento di Daniel del 23/2/2014 non ho mangiato né dormito
Non so cosa fare
Daniel ha scritto che voleva io ero il suo compagno
Come gli dico che sto già sposato e io non sono turco
So che questo è un grande complimento, ma io amo molto Jennifer
Povero Daniel sarà così deluso
Spero che Ruth lo conforterà
Giovanni AKA John T
July Rice says
Tu sei molto divertente Giovanni! Apprezzo il suo umorismo moltissimo!
A presto! July
Daniel says
Ma ora fai le battute in italiano, Giovanni?
Duygu Çağlar DOĞAN says
Ciao,
Sono una ragazza turca e vivo ad Ankara. Fino ad ora, ho ricevuto tante mail da te, Daniel, ma non ho scritto nulla come una risposta.. Ma dopo aver letto questo piccolo articolo, é venuta la voglia di scrivere un commento. Io, credo proprio l’effetto magico sulla carattere di una lingua diversa dalla madrelingua. Certo che non cambiamo, non diventiamo un’altra persona quando parliamo un’altra lingua. Pero’ la lingua non solo é lingua. Lingua é una ricchezza culturale che aggiunge un nuovo mondo al nostro mondo in cui già’ viviamo. Cioè il nostro proverbio, secondo me, é giusto 🙂
Saluti da Ankara!!
Duygu
Daniel says
Ciao Duygu, e benvenuta (hos geldin..)!
Che bello leggere la tua opinione, e anche scrivi molto bene in italiano, meglio di me temo.
Hai ragione che la lingua è molto più di sola la grammatica, le parole e la pronuncia. Parlare una nuova lingua può (ma non necessariamente) significare pensare in un nuovo modo al mondo.
Dove abiti in Ankara?
Io ho passato due anni a Kizilay (ma era prima della costruzione del metro, almeno 20 anni fa), poi un anno a Dikmen. Ho lavorato in una scuola di inglese nel centro: a Mithatpasa Cadesi.
Amo il vostro paesi, mi piacerebbe molto tornare…
Spero di risentirti presto!
Daniel
Duygu Çağlar DOĞAN says
Ciao Daniel,
“Hoşbulduk” 🙂
Vivo a Çankaya. Ankara é cambiato moltissimo in 20 anni, non potresti immaginare. Ti do il benvenuto se un giorno realizza il tuo sogno di tornare qui.. Lo dico sinceramente..
Invece Bologna é la mia città preferita. Ci vengo ogni anno, più di una volta..
Ad aprile vengo di nuovo per un paio di giorni. Magari ci possiamo incontrare.
Saluti,
Duygu
Daniel says
Se mi ricordo bene (senza controllare con Google Maps) Cankaya è la zona dove si trova l’Atakule. Giusto? Su dal centro…
E per quale motivo frequenti Bologna, Duygu?
Ma passa pure a vederci quando vieni! Ho bisogno anche di esercitarmi un po con turco… Sono venti anni che non lo parlo!
Duygu Çağlar DOĞAN says
Ricordi bene Daniel, Çankaya é la zona di Atakule.. Vivo vicino ad Atakule.
Questa volta vengo a Bologna per un convegno internazionale. Sono ricercatrice all’universita in materia di diritto penale. Ho fatto erasmus a Bologna 4 anni fa . Poi ci sono venuta spesso per vari motivi..
Auguro buona domenica a te e alla tua famiglia!
Daniel says
Grazie, Duygu, anche a voi!
Pamela says
A number of things come to mind on this topic. One is that I find is that I am far less complex and controlled in what I say in Italian because I do not have the ability to speak at such a sophisticated level as I do in English. I also take pleasure simply in finding words, listening and understanding, following the flow of ideas, observing and thinking things like “hmmm… she used the subjunctive there, interesting…”. In Italian I may find my words leading me somewhere unexpected purely because the words I choose are those words I can find when speaking ‘at speed’ and may not exactly convey what I intend. This might sound like it would be nightmarish, but in fact it is exciting! It helps of course that Italians are in general friendly and forgiving of foreigners speaking their language at a less than fluent level – they really do not seem to mind and will spend hours talking with you anyway. All in all, all good. So am I different in Italian? Yes, I am simpler, more easily satisfied, more open to chance happenings, less controlled.
Daniel says
Hi Pamela,
Thanks for taking the time to contribute.
As you say, there are ‘levels’ in language use. We’re naturally capable of a lot more, and more easily, in our mother-tongue.
But there are pleasures too in speaking a foreign language, and it’s normal that that will be more limiting.
But I have a question for you. A lot of people will find this transition from L1 (mother tongue) to L2 (second language) frustrating, even frightening. They are no longer able to ‘be’ themselves in the new language.
Did you find that at first, and when did it pass?
Pamela says
After I left behind the early “hey! I can count to ten!” success stage I entered a period of recurrent frustration and feeling disheartened – mixed with a sense of progress occasionally as well. The old two steps forward, one step back syndrome. A memory of my “Italian self” at that time was one of feeling tired, mentally blank, stupid even as I stumbled over words or just ground to a halt. I felt embarrassed fairly often although it was only me who was judging myself. At times I just wanted to give up or hide away. What kept me going? I think it was mainly talking with Italians in Italian. People really did not seem to mind my stilted sentences and weird meanings, did not roll their eyes, lose interest and turn away, but rather seemed to understand what I was trying to say enough to respond and keep the conversational ball rolling. So I would keep going too. Their friendliness was very encouraging and what’s more I found what they had to say interesting – both the content but also how they said it. Even if I could not speak the language very well, they could and so it was like having targeted mini lessons which I could observe, participate in and absorb. Luckily I like talking to people and I have enjoyed being able to speak with people whom otherwise I would never have been able to get to know. And as you alluded to – people from all walks of life, not just my usual social milieu. And I know this sounds strange but one day I just stopped feeling bad about not being very good in the language. I stopped feeling embarrassed and stupid and was ok with stumbling over words or mangling tenses etc. I realised that I was gradually improving and I thought, “you know what, I don’t know this language fluently, I am a learner and will probably always be a learner and that’s ok”. And I truly came to thinking that it is great be in the process of learning a new language as it opens the mind so much. I guess I have also been lucky in that my learning was not only in a distant classroom with a textbook but also in conversation with native speakers. I would really encourage people who are struggling (and we all do) to find some Italians to talk with! If this can be in Italy, so much the better, but if not then find an Italian Club or Society in your area or join the Skype conversations that Daniel is talking about. And just keep going.
Daniel says
That’s very encouraging, Pamela.
I think it’s a question of getting to the point when the ‘meaning’ becomes more important to you than the ‘means’ of communicating it. Basically once you’ve formed relationships with people that signify the sharing of information at a ‘real’ level, the limitations of your second language become secondary. It’s more important what is said, rather than how it’s said.
And from that point on, there’s a sort of ‘virtuous circle’, that is not only meaningful, but also promotes a continuous improvement in your ability to speak and understand.
I found reading a lot in Italian helped, too. Speaking a lot, and in a meaningful way, is rather dependent on having Italian-speaking friends, neighbours or colleagues. But books, newspapers, websites are always at hand.
Pamela says
Yes I read a lot of Italian online as it is easy to click around the web and you can find long or short, deep or light, news, comment etc. Plus you can have Google Translate open in another window for help as needed. I have also joined various Italian Facebook groups in subject areas I find interesting. As this is conversational in tone, mainly short, includes photos and links to other sites or articles and so forth it is endlessly fascinating for me.
Daniel says
I’m too old for Google Translate, Pamela, but yes, I see what you mean. Facebook groups, and in general any type of community, are an excellent idea. And, of course, all the reading provides context and cultural knowledge when it comes to face-to-face conversations. “So, what do you think of the Renzi government’s chances?” If you’re going to be in the conversation, you need to be in the know.
Nina Rault says
Two personalities? I was married to a Frenchman for sixteen years. Whenever we were angry with each other, we spoke French. When we were loving, we spoke English. I’m not sure whether that proves your point or not.
Daniel says
Guess it does, Nina. But isn’t French supposed to be the language of love? Certainly not English.
My (Italian) wife, reading your comment, says “I don’t want to argue in Italian”. We met in the UK, we’ve always spoken English together. She’s almost incapable of speaking English to me. My kids are the same. It seems that our brains associate different languages with different people, or situations.
Would you agree with that??
Nina Rault says
Yes, I definitely would. Young children in bilingual or multilingual families (as were mine) automatically change language according to the person they’re speaking to. Also situations. My daughter would speak French when telling me what had happened at her (French) school but English when talking about Grandad. And what about phone numbers? I find it difficult to say my French phone number in English or to say English phone numbers in French.
Daniel says
Phone numbers take some practice, it’s true.
And it’s certainly strange the way kids’ minds work. My son, for example, will struggle to find a word when explaining something to me in English. So I’ll suggest he tells me in Italian. Blank look. He can’t even conceive of speaking Italian to me…
Jo Harvey says
Salve
Sono una donna Inglese (40+) e vivo in Inghilterra. Ho imparato l’italiano quano ero molto piu giovane e quando parlo italiano ora, mi sento come fossi di nuova, quella ragazza. Quando insegno l’italiano, mi sento talmente felice che dopo le lezioni, torno a casa pieno di felicita e di gioia. Force e` perche mi piace insegnare ma io credo che sia perche mi sento come quella reagazza giovane.
Daniel says
Salve Jo,
ah! Sei un prof. di italiano? Allora sto molto attento a non fare gli errori….
Si, è vero che una lingua che hai imparato da giovane può poi ricordarti degli anni passati. E lo stesso per me con turco.
Vero anche che insegnare è un’attività piacevole (almeno quando va bene, questa settimana ho fatto una lezione disastrosa!)
Quindi, direi che sei fortunata! Riesci a fare due cose piacevole insieme…
A presto!
Daniel
John P says
To me this is highly dependent on how bilingual you are, if you’re at a very basic level where you have to go through slow mental translation then I don’t think so, but as you become more fluent and more connected with both languages and hence cultural differences then its does have an impact but you don’t become a different person, one starts to have a different perspective.
The example that I find most striking is when asking someone’s age we say “how old are you?” and in Italian you ask “quanti anni ciai” and to me this sets up to different mind sets, in English depending on the answers, your young and experience, or too old and hence grumpy and don’t have currency. In Italian the question gives all more dignity and status especially since its devoid of the word “old”
Daniel says
Hi John,
Thanks for joining us, and for following on Twitter. I’ll be over there later to say ‘ciao’, as I see you tweet regularly.
I agree with what you say about how well you know a language, and your example is a nice one.
But, and here’s a funny thing, have you ever noticed that the people who know a foreign language BEST are often the least satisfied with their knowledge?
People often come into our school (Italians, wanting to improve their English) complaining: “When I watch American films, I can’t understand everything…”
We administer the usual level test, do an interview to check how well they speak, and conclude that their level is way, way above average for an Italian. With all probability, they have good enough foreign language skills to watch a film without great effort or problems (which is beyond most of us).
“Yes, but I can’t understand EVERYTHING…”
The more you know of Italian, the more likely you are to make a direct (and unreasonable) comparison with your own language. I’ve been learning English for 46 years, Italian for 15. Guess which is better? And would it be reasonable for me to complain that I find using Italian harder or more limiting?
Perhaps it’s hard to be reasonable about speaking a foreign language, as it touches on so many of our insecurities.
Veronica Byrne says
Ciao Daniel. Very interesting article and your question equally so. I use sign language to communicate with 2 of my children. This is a situation where one’s own children are born culturally and linguistically different to you. Using signed English I can communicate effectively, but feel completely restricted and exhausted. Using AUSLAN I am a novice…..still after 30 years.. My son was completely comfortable with his first exposure to AUSLAN , whereas i was incompetent. This was a complete role reversal in the parent / child diad. Although I had 2 degrees and was a teacher of the deaf my personality as a parent took a beating. Rather than a different personality , one could say I developed a split personality!!!!!! However , the fluidity of manual communication gives rise to theatricality and intensity of ideas exchange. Learning to sign increased my ability to play the piano….I have read that the people of Martha’s Vineyard ( a deaf precinct in America ) , although they would normally speak, use sign when engaging in deep discussions. Interesting!
I love learning italian and love to communicate in italian…(writing in italian is another matter entirely!!) a couple of years ago I found myself having a philosophical discussion with a shop owner in Firenze . With all of my mistakes we were able to converse and I could appreciate what was said to me. It was the first of many interesting conversations. From my observation there is a greater depth to italian due to the richness of the culture and a more intimate connection of that tangible history with the italian people. I feel like a more interesting person when I am in Italy. Thanks for this thought!
Veronica
Daniel says
Hello Veronica,
Thanks for sharing this with us.
What you say about parenting in sign language mirrors my own experience as a father of children born in Italy, who speak Italian amongst themselves and at school all day long.
At first, I have to say, I felt excluded, even angry and would have liked to bring up my kids in my own country. But the feeling passed as they grew. Your kids are your kids, no matter how they (or you) communicate. I bet they don’t think less of you because you’re less fluent when signing.
As regards being a more interesting person when speaking Italian, I wonder if this has anything to do with what you were speaking about? Sometimes a change of cultural context can spark new passions and interests. Which, being new, are naturally more interesting.
Perhaps that’s part of the whole thing? The second language doesn’t make you a second personality, but does rather give you the opportunity to develop one (complete with new passions) if you wish to…
July Rice says
Pamela was fortunate enough, in her early stages of learning Italian, to have found patient Italians willing to hear her out. I get the glazed eye look followed by the shifty-eyed one – maybe even a tapping toe – accompanied by extremely loud responses. Yes, I speak Italian badly and slowly, but I am not a DEAF IDIOT!
Also, many of the folks around here prefer to speak dialect (are they bi-lingual?) When they switch from one to the other, do they do a sort-of Jeckyll and Hyde routine?
What would Freud make of all this, I wonder.
And, what delightful Turkish memories you have, Daniel!
Buona domenica a tutti. July
PS John – I love it when you lower the tone! Your comments were right on!
Daniel says
Buona domenica anche a te, July!
Ruth Stephens says
Dear July
You experience of living in Italy reminds me of a book I really enjoyed a couple of years ago and I’m sure you would too. It’ s called Extra Virgin , by Annie Hawes. You may be able to find it on the internet. You would certainly be able to identify with the author’s account of her life in a small , rural village.
Ruth
Daniel says
If you typed your email address correctly, Ruth, your comment would be approved automatically and would immediately be visible (would save me a job, too…)
July Rice says
Hello Ruth. I have not heard of the novel you mention. However, I am an avid reader and get my books from Amazon.UK I usually pay 1 penny for a used book in good condition, plus postage – in all about 5 Euros per copy. A good deal, I think. I will definitely look for this book, order it, and let you know. Grazie molto per tutto il suo commenti gentile. Apprezzo piu che poi immaginare.
A presto! (Giovedì, force?)
Ruth Stephens says
I was going to give the “parliamo” meeting a miss this week, July. I am not good in situations like that – my brain seizes up and I can’t find the Italian words I need. Having said thst, it’ s been nice to meet with those whose posts i read, others too, and to put a face to the names.in your case it’s only been a voice so far but , anyway, I decided to register for Thurs so hope to see as well as hear you then.
Grazie mille per i tuoi commenti .
Ruth
July Rice says
Hello Ruth. My last message to you (quite detailed) did not go through. Grrrr! My capcha number was not accepted. Anyway, I hope my webcam will come through for me on Thursday – it works on Skype just fine. Chi sa? Speriamo. Ci vediamo Giovedì. Grazie per tutto, Ruth. July.
Daniel says
Sorry about that, July. You could try composing your message in a text document, then copying it into the comment box when you’re ready. That eliminates the risk of wasting your time if the site, or your browser, should malfunction…
July Rice says
Buon giorno! I don’t believe my capcha number was not accepted because I made a mistake doing the math. However, to be safe, I will do as you say. A domani! July
PS I have difficulty sometimes accessing new posts and comments. Maybe because I click the two boxes below.
PPS The Black Cat Imparare Leggendo books with CD are great!
Daniel says
Hi July,
No, it’s almost certainly not a user-error. Don’t worry! There are some technical reasons with the site why the comments might sometimes get lost. But if you do as I suggested, at least you can try again without having wasted more than a few seconds…
I agree, the Black Cat simplified books are good.
Daniel